I had an interesting conversation with a pal about auto-tow glider launching method recently. It seems academic really.

When cost is considered, auto-towing has to be far more affordable than even winching. Maybe $1.50 per tow, max? In aviation, the cost is always critical. Especially in gliding club environments. Aerotows are $30-50 per tow. Winches are extremely expensive to purchase, to maintain, and insure and require skilled operators.

Auto-tow procedure seems fairly simple. 1) Steady strong acceleration until the glider comes airborne, then 2) add 5mph and 3) hold that speed until you hear differently from the pilot. Of course, 4) stop at the end of the runway :-).

Why is auto-towing not a mainstream method of getting gliders airborne?

I saw auto-towing happen regularly at Hobbs this year (my first visit). It was quite graceful and almost exotic. To be honest, it looks even more fun than winching.

I am very interested in learning what you know, your thoughts and your opinions.

Sean
7T

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 7:57:33 AM UTC+3, Sean Fidler wrote:
> I had an interesting conversation with a pal about auto-tow glider launching method recently. It seems academic really.
>
> When cost is considered, auto-towing has to be far more affordable than even winching. Maybe $1.50 per tow, max? In aviation, the cost is always critical. Especially in gliding club environments. Aerotows are $30-50 per tow. Winches are extremely expensive to purchase, to maintain, and insure and require skilled operators.
>
> Auto-tow procedure seems fairly simple. 1) Steady strong acceleration until the glider comes airborne, then 2) add 5mph and 3) hold that speed until you hear differently from the pilot. Of course, 4) stop at the end of the runway :-).
>
> Why is auto-towing not a mainstream method of getting gliders airborne?
>
> I saw auto-towing happen regularly at Hobbs this year (my first visit). It was quite graceful and almost exotic. To be honest, it looks even more fun than winching.
>
> I am very interested in learning what you know, your thoughts and your opinions.
>
> Sean
> 7T

Because it needs a LOT of space, unless all you want to do is get something with a sustainer engine off the ground? (or you're at a ridge-top site)

Am Montag, 5. Oktober 2015 06:57:33 UTC+2 schrieb Sean Fidler:
> I had an interesting conversation with a pal about auto-tow glider launching method recently. It seems academic really.
>
> When cost is considered, auto-towing has to be far more affordable than even winching. Maybe $1.50 per tow, max? In aviation, the cost is always critical. Especially in gliding club environments. Aerotows are $30-50 per tow. Winches are extremely expensive to purchase, to maintain, and insure and require skilled operators.

Winches can be homebuilt.
They are not expensive to maintain.
At least in Europe, they are not expensive to insure.
In most European clubs (maybe except Southern France), most club members are trained to operate a winch, and do so based on a rooster schedule.

So why exactly do you want to replace them with a car screaming down the runway?

Bert
TW

Good question. Seems to me reverse car tows(fixed pulley windward car drives toward the glider) would be the way to go. Has there been any sailplane work with car mounted pay out winches? Pay out winches are what the hangglider and paraglider community have mostly settled on using. Both of these solutions somewhat mitigate the space needed to auto tow.

Having done both in the UK, at two different sites, I can compare and
contrast:
1. Auto-tow needs a hard surface, realistically at least 1000m and
preferably nearer 2000m long. Winch launch can be done off grass surfaces
needing only a route for cable tow out using a tractor or 4x4.
2. Winching only accelerates the glider (plus a small amount of engine,
transmission and drum inertia) thus reaching take-off speed takes much less
time than auto-tow where you also accelerate close to 2 tons of auto as
well as the glider (say about 0.6 tons). Typical winch launch reaches
take-off speed in 2-3 seconds whereas auto tow takes 10-15 seconds to get
airborne. This longer ground roll also exacerbates cable wear (along the
hard abrasive surface for auto-tow, compared to soft grass surfaces on
winch strips).
3. The angle of pull is more favourable as the winch is always further away
than the auto would be at any given point. There is rather more down than
forward pull with an auto, mid-climb onwards. This increases cable tension
(limited by the weak link) for a given level of 'thrust' so makes cable
breaks more likely and reduces the amount you can use back pressure to
increase the angle of attack and hence climb rate.
4. With an auto, you have to terminate the climb before the end of the
runway so you can stretch out the cable, as it falls by parachute, so it
does not end up in a big knotted pile. This reduces the effective useable
runway length.
5. Heavy cars with auto transmission generally need a lot more maintenance
than a winch (lots more effort in accelerating and decelerating the tow
vehicle itself).
My experience is that, all other things being equal, you typically get
around 50% higher for a given runway length using a winch.
Ther may be occasions, such as on expeditions, when auto-tow is expedient
but for regular training operations such as those done in Europe, you can't
beat the winch.

Regards,
Roy Pentecost

Yes I've also done reverse pulley.
It solves a few of the auto-tow issues: Angle of pull, length to tow out
cable after release but still leaves the others: Time and distance to
accelerate great moving mass. It also introduces much more cable wear as
part of the cable is always on the ground. Reverse pulley is better than
straight tow but still less effective than the winch.


At 11:13 05 October 2015, Roy Pentecost wrote:
>Having done both in the UK, at two different sites, I can compare an
>contrast:
>1. Auto-tow needs a hard surface, realistically at least 1000m an
>preferably nearer 2000m long. Winch launch can be done off grass surface
>needing only a route for cable tow out using a tractor or 4x4.
>2. Winching only accelerates the glider (plus a small amount of engine
>transmission and drum inertia) thus reaching take-off speed takes much
les
>time than auto-tow where you also accelerate close to 2 tons of auto a
>well as the glider (say about 0.6 tons). Typical winch launch reache
>take-off speed in 2-3 seconds whereas auto tow takes 10-15 seconds to ge
>airborne. This longer ground roll also exacerbates cable wear (along th
>hard abrasive surface for auto-tow, compared to soft grass surfaces o
>winch strips).
>3. The angle of pull is more favourable as the winch is always further
awa
>than the auto would be at any given point. There is rather more down tha
>forward pull with an auto, mid-climb onwards. This increases cable tensio
>(limited by the weak link) for a given level of 'thrust' so makes cabl
>breaks more likely and reduces the amount you can use back pressure t
>increase the angle of attack and hence climb rate.
>4. With an auto, you have to terminate the climb before the end of th
>runway so you can stretch out the cable, as it falls by parachute, so i
>does not end up in a big knotted pile. This reduces the effective useabl
>runway length.
>5. Heavy cars with auto transmission generally need a lot more maintenanc
>than a winch (lots more effort in accelerating and decelerating the to
>vehicle itself).
>My experience is that, all other things being equal, you typically ge
>around 50% higher for a given runway length using a winch.
>Ther may be occasions, such as on expeditions, when auto-tow is expedien
>but for regular training operations such as those done in Europe, you
can'
>beat the winch.
>
>Regards,
>Roy Pentecost
>
>

Chapter 3 of the classic American Soaring Handbook has about 23 pages on Auto Tow with several illustrations including a homebuilt car tow release and a technical discussion of the process. 3,500' of runway is the minimum runway length suggested so the sailplane can (barely) make a 360 degree circle to land. Straight-line auto tow and auto tow with pulley are discussed in detail.

As simple as it appears, auto tow should be carefully researched. Finding a sailplane pilot who has supervised auto tow is essential. A ground-launch endorsement from an authorized CFI per FAR 61.31(j) is required for the sailplane pilot unless "grandfathered" however proficiency is essential for both the pilot and the driver. An observer in the auto is important for safety. Density altitude will affect the power of the auto motor and the speed required for the sailplane to launch.

One possible issue with auto tow on airports with airplane traffic is that the cable cannot be reeled in unless a winch system is mounted on the back of a pick-up truck. Some of the hang glider folks have developed this system.

Read the article in the May-June 1955 SOARING magazine, "The Elimination of Guess-Work in Auto Towing" by Otto Zauner and Art Heavener.

The American Soaring Handbook was a binder of 10 chapters on essential aspects that a SSA club needed to know about maintenance, auto, winch and aerotow launching, instruments and much more. Long out of print this handy 6"x9" blue binder might be found on dusty bookshelves in gliderport clubhouses around the USA. Often listed on E-bay and internet book searches such as Albris, this valuable collection of knowledge written by some of the legends of soaring is essential reading. About $25 if all of the 10 chapters are included in the binder.

For an entertaining (but not instructional) video of auto tow watch the "Reunion" episode of the '50's Sci-Fi TV show, "One Step Beyond".

Hi Sean
The Dublin Gliding Club is doing every year an expedition to the Beaches on the Dingle Peninsula in the South of Ireland where gliders are car towed see enclosed or others on You Tube
https://vimeo.com/108137453

Regards
Bruno

Two excellent posts above from Roy and Burt. I learned partially on auto tow, with maybe 25 launches done by that method over the space of two winters (we would put the towplane away for the winter and revert to auto towing).. Roy summarizes the operational aspects beautifully. As far as equipment, we used "junker" big-block American iron from the early and mid 1970s. The Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser wagon was ideal, since it has a built-in observer seat in the rear. We found that for whatever reason, auto-towing seemed to put a lot of wear and tear on the transition and drive train. Moderately hard acceleration with the load of the glider followed by near-panic stopping repeatedly at the other end meant that I got to be a pretty decent auto mechanic. At our facility, we had 3,000 foot paved with 800 or so grass overrun. With the glider's tail right in the weeds, the car was just on the runway. That gave us the full 3,000 to accelerate, cruise, then stop. We normally got about 600 feet of altitude, though 700 or even 800 was possible if the wind was right down the runway.

So, it's definitely a viable option, especially for early training. Practically, we ended up getting maybe 8-10 launches during a session before something broke on the vehicle or we had a big rope break. We spent a lot of time fixing per every minute of aviating, but when you're in college, $5 tows are attractive!

Erik Mann (P3)

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 12:57:33 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> I had an interesting conversation with a pal about auto-tow glider launching method recently. It seems academic really.
>
> When cost is considered, auto-towing has to be far more affordable than even winching. Maybe $1.50 per tow, max? In aviation, the cost is always critical. Especially in gliding club environments. Aerotows are $30-50 per tow. Winches are extremely expensive to purchase, to maintain, and insure and require skilled operators.
>
> Auto-tow procedure seems fairly simple. 1) Steady strong acceleration until the glider comes airborne, then 2) add 5mph and 3) hold that speed until you hear differently from the pilot. Of course, 4) stop at the end of the runway :-).
>
> Why is auto-towing not a mainstream method of getting gliders airborne?
>
> I saw auto-towing happen regularly at Hobbs this year (my first visit). It was quite graceful and almost exotic. To be honest, it looks even more fun than winching.
>
> I am very interested in learning what you know, your thoughts and your opinions.
>
> Sean
> 7T

It's only as economical as your space and labor happens to be. Ideal for a dry lake. Hobbs is sort of a paved dry lake :-).

When I was a student pilot, we did 2-33 "cat shots" off Harris Hill with two old tow ropes spliced together, later with a proper 400' cable, into gentle late afternoon ridge lift, all powered by an old 307 Chevelle with questionable brakes (thanks Dave!). A total gas, never to be forgotten. Driving the car (which I did a lot) was even more exciting than flying the glider.. The brow of the hill slopes off in a fashion that makes the nerves a little uneasy... especially with those rusty four wheel drum brakes.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 8:30:06 AM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:

> When I was a student pilot, we did 2-33 "cat shots" off Harris Hill with two old tow ropes spliced together, later with a proper 400' cable, into gentle late afternoon ridge lift, all powered by an old 307 Chevelle with questionable brakes (thanks Dave!). A total gas, never to be forgotten. Driving the car (which I did a lot) was even more exciting than flying the glider. The brow of the hill slopes off in a fashion that makes the nerves a little uneasy... especially with those rusty four wheel drum brakes.
>
> -Evan Ludeman / T8

That reminded me. The far end of our runway had a steep dropoff into a corn field. On one tow, as I eased off the gas and got on the brakes... there weren't any. Or not much. Went all Dukes of Hazard and luckily landed safely on the downslope, ending up with the hood in the corn. Funny now, but actually a pretty dicey situation. So driver/observer safety in the tow vehicle is definitely another consideration depending on the field conditions/configuration.

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 7:40:06 AM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
> On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 8:30:06 AM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
>
> > When I was a student pilot, we did 2-33 "cat shots" off Harris Hill with two old tow ropes spliced together, later with a proper 400' cable, into gentle late afternoon ridge lift, all powered by an old 307 Chevelle with questionable brakes (thanks Dave!). A total gas, never to be forgotten. Driving the car (which I did a lot) was even more exciting than flying the glider. The brow of the hill slopes off in a fashion that makes the nerves a little uneasy... especially with those rusty four wheel drum brakes.
> >
> > -Evan Ludeman / T8
>
> That reminded me. The far end of our runway had a steep dropoff into a corn field. On one tow, as I eased off the gas and got on the brakes... there weren't any. Or not much. Went all Dukes of Hazard and luckily landed safely on the downslope, ending up with the hood in the corn. Funny now, but actually a pretty dicey situation. So driver/observer safety in the tow vehicle is definitely another consideration depending on the field conditions/configuration.

All the winches I flew on in Europe had guillotines to cut the cable in an emergency (mandated in Germany). How do you do that with cars? I witnessed a near fatal accident with hanglider being towed by a car where the pilot flew a neat arc that ended with an impact. When I asked the person on the bed of the towing pickup how he had planned to sever the rope in such an event, he showed me his pocket knife!

We do some auto towing at Sunflower in Kansas. Ex Military base, 7000 foot long runway. Surface is roughly the equivalent of The Great Barrier Reef as far as the rope is concerned. The majority of the wear seems to happen when dragging the rope back after the launch, as it does not take too long for all 2000 or so feet to be off the ground. We have cracks in the pavement that has some grass growing up through them, so you can reduce the wear some by pulling the rope back with it in/on that grass. We do not put a chute on the rope, but just let it fall. The fun comes in turning the car around, and trying to be within 50 feet of the end of the rope when it hits the ground. Yep, I have done it. With a full size Chevy G-20 van!

Another option that has been used is a wind up winch on the tow vehicle. Once the vehicle is stopped, the crew goes to the back, operates the wind up winch (have seen both gas and electric version), then drive back, and lay out the rope again.

Pay Out winch probably works better for hang gliders than for our sailplanes, as the car has to go faster than the glider in order to pay out any line.. And in light winds, the glider may need the car to run 60 MPH or more for straight towing, so even faster for pay-out towing. Faster yet for higher elevations (Sunflower is 1500 feet MSL). Gary Boggs has used a pay-out system quite successfully, so it is not impossible to do. Just maybe not so good for the planes that need a bit more speed, unless operating from a drive lakebed.

Fixed pulley at the upwind end opens up lots of possibilities. Especially since the glider can no longer pick up the tow car! Bring on the Z06 Corvettes if you have got pavement! You wanted winch acceleration, now you have got it!

As to wear and tear on the vehicle and its drive train, do an auto tow with a vehicle with an auto transmission that also has a tachometer. Then, drive in the same gear (count shifts from start) at the same speed without the load of the glider. You will probably discover that the torque converter is not locked up when launching the glider (much higher RPM during the glider tow). So, you are generating a lot of extra heat in the transmission on each tow. Best bet for auto tow would be a big block with a manual transmission, and ability to start out in second gear, so you don't have to shift..

It is fun. Get a new car. Get the extended drive train warranty. When the tranny goes out, don't mention you have been launching gliders. :-)

Steve Leonard

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 10:11:57 AM UTC-4, wrote:

>
> All the winches I flew on in Europe had guillotines to cut the cable in an emergency (mandated in Germany). How do you do that with cars? I witnessed a near fatal accident with hanglider being towed by a car where the pilot flew a neat arc that ended with an impact. When I asked the person on the bed of the towing pickup how he had planned to sever the rope in such an event, he showed me his pocket knife!

We had a very nice rig for that. The car end had Schweizer tow release mounted on a steel plate. The plate was hinged for freedom in the vertical axis. The plate and associated structure was mounted on a ball coupling that rode on the car's towball, allowing freedom in the horizontal axis. The rig had the usual Schweizer release rope (same as a towplane), so the back seat observer held the release rope in his hand and pulled it in an emergency. We also had a crash-ax mounted in back as an extra safety measure.

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 10:11:57 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 7:40:06 AM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
> > On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 8:30:06 AM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
> >
> > > When I was a student pilot, we did 2-33 "cat shots" off Harris Hill with two old tow ropes spliced together, later with a proper 400' cable, into gentle late afternoon ridge lift, all powered by an old 307 Chevelle with questionable brakes (thanks Dave!). A total gas, never to be forgotten. Driving the car (which I did a lot) was even more exciting than flying the glider. The brow of the hill slopes off in a fashion that makes the nerves a little uneasy... especially with those rusty four wheel drum brakes.
> > >
> > > -Evan Ludeman / T8
> >
> > That reminded me. The far end of our runway had a steep dropoff into a corn field. On one tow, as I eased off the gas and got on the brakes... there weren't any. Or not much. Went all Dukes of Hazard and luckily landed safely on the downslope, ending up with the hood in the corn. Funny now, but actually a pretty dicey situation. So driver/observer safety in the tow vehicle is definitely another consideration depending on the field conditions/configuration.
>
> All the winches I flew on in Europe had guillotines to cut the cable in an emergency (mandated in Germany). How do you do that with cars?

We had a Schweizer tow hook mounted in place of a hitch ball.

-Evan

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 9:11:57 AM UTC-5, wrote:
>
> All the winches I flew on in Europe had guillotines to cut the cable in an emergency (mandated in Germany). How do you do that with cars? I witnessed a near fatal accident with hanglider being towed by a car where the pilot flew a neat arc that ended with an impact. When I asked the person on the bed of the towing pickup how he had planned to sever the rope in such an event, he showed me his pocket knife!

Yikes! Like the others, we have a Schweizer hitch on a swivel so it is always line up with the rope tension, and a cable or cord to operate it. On my setup, I also have a hydraulic cylinder between the car and the hitch, with a gauge up front so I can see line tension and use this to help set the right speed.

Steve Leonard

On Sunday, October 4, 2015 at 10:57:33 PM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
> I had an interesting conversation with a pal about auto-tow glider launching method recently. It seems academic really.
>
> When cost is considered, auto-towing has to be far more affordable than even winching. Maybe $1.50 per tow, max? In aviation, the cost is always critical. Especially in gliding club environments. Aerotows are $30-50 per tow. Winches are extremely expensive to purchase, to maintain, and insure and require skilled operators.
>
> Auto-tow procedure seems fairly simple. 1) Steady strong acceleration until the glider comes airborne, then 2) add 5mph and 3) hold that speed until you hear differently from the pilot. Of course, 4) stop at the end of the runway :-).
>
> Why is auto-towing not a mainstream method of getting gliders airborne?
>
> I saw auto-towing happen regularly at Hobbs this year (my first visit). It was quite graceful and almost exotic. To be honest, it looks even more fun than winching.
>
> I am very interested in learning what you know, your thoughts and your opinions.
>
> Sean
> 7T

Sean, I've done a lot of both auto tows and winch launches. The low cost of auto tow is illusionary because people tend to ignore the costs associated with the tow car. Auto towing is really, really hard on a car. Modern gliders need 60 - 65 knots to safely rotate into the climb phase so the tow car is doing full throttle 0 - 75 mph on every tow followed by maximum effort braking to stop. It's basically drag racing so maintenance and tire replacement become a huge cost. Auto tow operations typically use a noob's car - until the owner figures out the wear and tear his vehicle is subject to..

As other poster pointed out, it also takes a LOT of room. To get decent height you need a long rope which takes up a large chunk of runway before anything gets rolling. Then, you need the acceleration distance for the car before the glider can start the climb. Finally, the tow must end so as to leave enough distance for the tow car to stop before running off the end of the runway.

If unlimited space is available as on Mojave dry lakes, then auto tow sorta makes sense but with any runway less than 5500 feet long, winches will get you higher and cost you less money doing it.

Not quite as exciting as winching since the power to weight ratio is
less but as effective if you have the room. Still, it's a heck of a lot
of fun! Definitely cheaper than a winch since somebody always has a
capable vehicle.

I've been on two ground launch safaris with my partner and our LS-6a.
We used his Jeep Grand Cherokee once and my Ford F-150 the other time.
We would take turns flying and driving (pulling the trailer) and every
flight was a straight out adventure. Everywhere we went we were well
received by airport management and never had problems with departing any
airport. Over 6-8 days we would fly a large circuit around the
southwest USA.

I'll be ground launching off of Roach Dry Lake south of Las Vegas, NV in
a couple of weeks during the LVVSA's twice annually ground launch
weekend. What a hoot!

Dan, 5J

On 10/4/2015 10:57 PM, Sean Fidler wrote:
> I had an interesting conversation with a pal about auto-tow glider launching method recently. It seems academic really.
>
> When cost is considered, auto-towing has to be far more affordable than even winching. Maybe $1.50 per tow, max? In aviation, the cost is always critical. Especially in gliding club environments. Aerotows are $30-50 per tow. Winches are extremely expensive to purchase, to maintain, and insure and require skilled operators.
>
> Auto-tow procedure seems fairly simple. 1) Steady strong acceleration until the glider comes airborne, then 2) add 5mph and 3) hold that speed until you hear differently from the pilot. Of course, 4) stop at the end of the runway :-).
>
> Why is auto-towing not a mainstream method of getting gliders airborne?
>
> I saw auto-towing happen regularly at Hobbs this year (my first visit). It was quite graceful and almost exotic. To be honest, it looks even more fun than winching.
>
> I am very interested in learning what you know, your thoughts and your opinions.
>
> Sean
> 7T

--
Dan, 5J

The Douglas County Composite Squadron (Minden) of CAP has one or two auto-tow clinics every year. We find them a good way to introduce ground launch operations to the CAP members, but also find them pretty labor intensive, hard on tow vehicle and rope, and more of a novelty than a good way to launch gliders.

By labor intensive, I mean we have at least three people in the tow vehicle (a 4WD pickup truck with auto transmission in tow mode so it doesn't try to shift into 4th gear). The three people are driver, person beside driver who communicates with glider and launch crew, and person in the back who can release the rope in an emergency or at the end of the run. Then we have a wing runner, a signal person beside the wing runner to communicate between the truck and the glider, and a driver for a retrieve vehicle that hooks onto the glider end of the rope to pull it back to the launch position. That's a lot of people, and we could ideally operate with one or two less, but in CAP we want to involve everyone.

We use a 2000' long rope on a 6000' long runway (we actually use a hard dirt area beside the runway because there are lights on the runway that would suffer if we tried to auto tow there). We generally get 900-1100' altitude on launch, depending on wind and the pilot's skill. We have a specially fabricated tow hook that fits into the truck's receiver hitch. It has a swivel so the hook is always aligned with the rope and a Tost release at the end.

Having the pilot drop the rope where it will fall over the tow area is essential for us, as we have obstacles to each side (runway lights to the north and a chain link fence to the south). I remember one retrieve when the pilot dropped the rope in such a place that the wind carried it over the chain link fence. That one lasted one and a half hours.

Despite the fact that most flights are 5-10 minutes long (we are, after all, practicing launch, not soaring) we generally don't get more than 15 launches out of an 8 hour day. I think the most we've ever gotten was 25 launches. That gives you an idea of how long staging, launching, retrieving and re-staging takes. Not as efficient as we might be, but we've been doing it for 3 years so we aren't neophytes at it.

Bottom line for me: it is a good way to introduce CAP members to a different method of launch, and it adds a lot of flights to the glider (CAP wants us to get 200 flights a year in order to keep the glider), but it has its own limitations and is not quite as easy as it might sound.

Fred

I once flew for an ESPN video on flying (Secrets of Speed). One of the
launch methods used was an auto pulley tow wherein the pulley was
mounted to the receiver on the back of the car and the cable was staked
to the ground near mid field. The car drove in the takeoff direction
during the launch and, with the 2:1 advantage of the pulley, it was
every bit as exciting as a winch. The car drove at about 1/2 the speed
of the glider. We were using a 3,400' runway and I don't recall the
release height, though it was not as high as a winch with a full runway
length of cable.

On 10/5/2015 5:01 AM, GB wrote:
> Good question. Seems to me reverse car tows(fixed pulley windward car drives toward the glider) would be the way to go. Has there been any sailplane work with car mounted pay out winches? Pay out winches are what the hangglider and paraglider community have mostly settled on using. Both of these solutions somewhat mitigate the space needed to auto tow.
>

--
Dan, 5J

At the Las Vegas tow weekend, they have a release mounted to the
receiver of the vehicle and the release rope routed to the observer.

On 10/5/2015 8:11 AM, wrote:
> On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 7:40:06 AM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
>> On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 8:30:06 AM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
>>
>>> When I was a student pilot, we did 2-33 "cat shots" off Harris Hill with two old tow ropes spliced together, later with a proper 400' cable, into gentle late afternoon ridge lift, all powered by an old 307 Chevelle with questionable brakes (thanks Dave!). A total gas, never to be forgotten. Driving the car (which I did a lot) was even more exciting than flying the glider. The brow of the hill slopes off in a fashion that makes the nerves a little uneasy... especially with those rusty four wheel drum brakes.
>>>
>>> -Evan Ludeman / T8
>> That reminded me. The far end of our runway had a steep dropoff into a corn field. On one tow, as I eased off the gas and got on the brakes... there weren't any. Or not much. Went all Dukes of Hazard and luckily landed safely on the downslope, ending up with the hood in the corn. Funny now, but actually a pretty dicey situation. So driver/observer safety in the tow vehicle is definitely another consideration depending on the field conditions/configuration.
> All the winches I flew on in Europe had guillotines to cut the cable in an emergency (mandated in Germany). How do you do that with cars? I witnessed a near fatal accident with hanglider being towed by a car where the pilot flew a neat arc that ended with an impact. When I asked the person on the bed of the towing pickup how he had planned to sever the rope in such an event, he showed me his pocket knife!

--
Dan, 5J

Wow! Great posts. I'll need time to read it all. Thanks.

We have an auto-tow rig in Ionia that has been used on rare occasion. Recently, a clinic was done in Cadillac and it was quite successful from what I understand. A number of people got sign offs, etc. But then it died again.

At 11:24 05 October 2015, Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas wrote:
>Chapter 3 of the classic American Soaring Handbook has about 23 pages on
>Au=
>to Tow with several illustrations including a homebuilt car tow release
>and=
> a technical discussion of the process. 3,500' of runway is the minimum
>ru=
>nway length suggested so the sailplane can (barely) make a 360 degree
>circl=
>e to land. Straight-line auto tow and auto tow with pulley are discussed
>i=
>n detail. =20
>
>As simple as it appears, auto tow should be carefully researched. Finding
>a=
> sailplane pilot who has supervised auto tow is essential. A
>ground-launch=
> endorsement from an authorized CFI per FAR 61.31(j) is required for the
>sa=
>ilplane pilot unless "grandfathered" however proficiency is essential for
>b=
>oth the pilot and the driver. An observer in the auto is important for
>saf=
>ety. Density altitude will affect the power of the auto motor and the
>spee=
>d required for the sailplane to launch.
>
>One possible issue with auto tow on airports with airplane traffic is
that
>=
>the cable cannot be reeled in unless a winch system is mounted on the
back
>=
>of a pick-up truck. Some of the hang glider folks have developed this
>syst=
>em.=20
>
>Read the article in the May-June 1955 SOARING magazine, "The Elimination
>of=
> Guess-Work in Auto Towing" by Otto Zauner and Art Heavener. =20
>
>The American Soaring Handbook was a binder of 10 chapters on essential
>aspe=
>cts that a SSA club needed to know about maintenance, auto, winch and
>aerot=
>ow launching, instruments and much more. Long out of print this handy
>6"x9=
>" blue binder might be found on dusty bookshelves in gliderport
clubhouses
>=
>around the USA. Often listed on E-bay and internet book searches such as
>A=
>lbris, this valuable collection of knowledge written by some of the
>legends=
> of soaring is essential reading. About $25 if all of the 10 chapters
are
>=
>included in the binder.
>
>For an entertaining (but not instructional) video of auto tow watch the
>"Re=
>union" episode of the '50's Sci-Fi TV show, "One Step Beyond".
>Yep, my dad was the glider pilot and I was the tow car driver . I was
fifteen then. Ross
>
Ross Briegleb

IIRC, in the old days a ground launch signoff was required before the commercial glider test. We would do it once a year at the Soaring Society of Dayton (now Caesar Creek Soaring Club) at our Richmond, IN airport, which had 3 paved runways, including two with paved taxiways that we operated off of. 5000-5500'. This was the late 1960s and the age of the big block V-8 horsepower wars so someone always seemed eager to volunteer their vehicle to show it off (probably not a second time, though). We got high enough to do a full pattern in a 2-22. Because it conflicted with our normal ops, we tended to pick an overcast day, fairly calm. A Schweizer tow hook was mounted on the hitch ball and someone sat in the back to pull the cord if necessary. I don't think it was hinged to track the wire direction so I suspect it would have been difficult to release under load. The only drama was how fast the glider climbed compared with aerotow. The biggest problem was the old wire breaking every few tows. It was a big deal to lay everything out and splice the wire a few times so we never did it more than was necessary to get the ground launch sign off for whomever was going up for their test.

I've had a couple of auto pulley tows. Wild! Aileron control before the wing runner even takes a step. These were just to get high enough from a grass strip to turn out over the ridge so I don't know what it's like for a full tow.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

Tow pilot lobby? Ha!

Send them to Moriarty so I can step down from towing. It may be fun for
time builders or youngsters but, for me, it's just plain underpaid work
which takes time away from my soaring.

On 10/5/2015 11:27 AM, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Wow! Great posts. I'll need time to read it all. Thanks.
>
> We have an auto-tow rig in Ionia that has been used on rare occasion. Recently, a clinic was done in Cadillac and it was quite successful from what I understand. A number of people got sign offs, etc. But then it died again.
>
> My honest opinion. Aerotowing is popular because the tow pilot lobby likes flying tow planes for free, building hours, etc. We should be auto-towing more! Especially in early training. It's a safe, viable and great option and if done with great care (as aero and winch are) it could be really impactful to lowering costs and increasing the number of youth pilots being trained.
>
> I think the public would get a kick out of seeing cars towing up gliders at airports! There is just something cool about it!
>
> Anyway...back to work.

--
Dan, 5J

On Sunday, October 4, 2015 at 11:57:33 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
> I had an interesting conversation with a pal about auto-tow glider launching method recently. It seems academic really.
>

Auto launching can be an economical, if laborious, way to get gliders in the air. My club used to do a lot of auto and winch launching. We did hundreds of auto launches and thousands of winch launches. For auto launch, we used the "pulley in the middle" system with the pulley on the to car, pulling from the middle of the rope. We used about 4000 feet of dacron line. 2:1 mechanical advantage of this system meant that the tow car never had to exceed 28 mph. With 10 mph headwind, our Ka-8 sometimes achieved launches of 2000' agl. We usually got 1400-1600' with the Ka-7 and ASK-21. The tow car was an old Ford Crown Vic that came from a junk yard. We had around 300-400 lbs of bricks in the trunk to keep the wheels from spinning in the later stages of a launch. I think it only ran on 5 cylinders, but it produced about the perfect amount of power for launching the 2 seaters. Put it in low gear and just push the accelerator smoothly to the floor. The glider would be airborne in about the same distance as a winch launch. The car would get to about 28 mph and by then the glider was beginning to pitch up. With the pedal all the way to the floor, a 2-seater glider in a steep climb would begin to slowly decelerate the car. This resulted in launches with very close to the perfect speed in the climb. We would be down below 25 mph with the glider at the top of the launch. Letting off the gas made for a very short stop.. The rope usually back released at that point. Made it easy peasy to launch two seaters. With the single place birds, we'd have to go a little easier on the throttle to keep speed below 30 at the car. Still, it was very easy to drive the launch as long as the pilot pitched up correctly.

Recovery of the rope was a bit fiddly and was the time consuming part of it all. We were at the end of the runway at the end of the launch, so we could not continue on to pull the rope down to the car. The rope just fell wherever. We had no chute on it anyway. We'd recover and straighten the line by putting it back on the pulley then having the anchor vehicle tow the other end of the rope to the launch point. We could do a launch every 10 minutes if we hustled. Usually it was more like 15 minutes per launch.

We always had two people in the car. A driver and an observer. The observers job was to keep an eye on the glider and relay info to the driver. The observer also had a very sharp machete with which to cut the rope should the glider be unable to release.

Our pulley system was just a truck wheel mounted on a steel arm that fit into an hitch receiver.

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 2:14:51 PM UTC-7, WB wrote:
> On Sunday, October 4, 2015 at 11:57:33 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > I had an interesting conversation with a pal about auto-tow glider launching method recently. It seems academic really.
> >
>
> Auto launching can be an economical, if laborious, way to get gliders in the air. My club used to do a lot of auto and winch launching. We did hundreds of auto launches and thousands of winch launches. For auto launch, we used the "pulley in the middle" system with the pulley on the to car, pulling from the middle of the rope. We used about 4000 feet of dacron line. 2:1 mechanical advantage of this system meant that the tow car never had to exceed 28 mph. With 10 mph headwind, our Ka-8 sometimes achieved launches of 2000' agl. We usually got 1400-1600' with the Ka-7 and ASK-21. The tow car was an old Ford Crown Vic that came from a junk yard. We had around 300-400 lbs of bricks in the trunk to keep the wheels from spinning in the later stages of a launch. I think it only ran on 5 cylinders, but it produced about the perfect amount of power for launching the 2 seaters. Put it in low gear and just push the accelerator smoothly to the floor. The glider would be airborne in about the same distance as a winch launch. The car would get to about 28 mph and by then the glider was beginning to pitch up. With the pedal all the way to the floor, a 2-seater glider in a steep climb would begin to slowly decelerate the car. This resulted in launches with very close to the perfect speed in the climb. We would be down below 25 mph with the glider at the top of the launch. Letting off the gas made for a very short stop. The rope usually back released at that point. Made it easy peasy to launch two seaters. With the single place birds, we'd have to go a little easier on the throttle to keep speed below 30 at the car. Still, it was very easy to drive the launch as long as the pilot pitched up correctly.
>
> Recovery of the rope was a bit fiddly and was the time consuming part of it all. We were at the end of the runway at the end of the launch, so we could not continue on to pull the rope down to the car. The rope just fell wherever. We had no chute on it anyway. We'd recover and straighten the line by putting it back on the pulley then having the anchor vehicle tow the other end of the rope to the launch point. We could do a launch every 10 minutes if we hustled. Usually it was more like 15 minutes per launch.
>
> We always had two people in the car. A driver and an observer. The observers job was to keep an eye on the glider and relay info to the driver. The observer also had a very sharp machete with which to cut the rope should the glider be unable to release.
>
> Our pulley system was just a truck wheel mounted on a steel arm that fit into an hitch receiver.

At least in most soaring sites in California, auto towing (as well as winch) will provide affordable sled rides at best. The lift is typically in the mountains 5-30 miles away. The only exceptions I can think of is Avenal and maybe Crazy Creek.

Ramy

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0kWK9b9sxAbMEN4WkVCb0l5N1E/view?usp=sharing

Car tow hitch with release

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 2:53:27 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> At least in most soaring sites in California, auto towing (as well as winch) will provide affordable sled rides at best. The lift is typically in the mountains 5-30 miles away. The only exceptions I can think of is Avenal and maybe Crazy Creek.
>

Affordable sled rides make for affordable training. And, the whole reason we tried (and ultimately failed) to get a winch operating at Crazy Creek is that lift is easily accessible from 2000 feet above the field on nearly all soarable days.

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 12:27:24 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Wow! Great posts. I'll need time to read it all. Thanks.
>
> We have an auto-tow rig in Ionia that has been used on rare occasion. Recently, a clinic was done in Cadillac and it was quite successful from what I understand. A number of people got sign offs, etc. But then it died again.
>
> My honest opinion. Aerotowing is popular because the tow pilot lobby likes flying tow planes for free, building hours, etc. We should be auto-towing more! Especially in early training. It's a safe, viable and great option and if done with great care (as aero and winch are) it could be really impactful to lowering costs and increasing the number of youth pilots being trained.
>
> I think the public would get a kick out of seeing cars towing up gliders at airports! There is just something cool about it!
>
> Anyway...back to work.


I'm an enthusiastic advocate of ground launching, however, at least in the U.S., tow planes provide operational flexibility that winches and auto launch do not. Towplanes can operate out of fields that are too short/narrow for ground launch operations (getting your winch line out of trees is no fun).. Try to take a winch somewhere besides the home field. It can be anything but straightforward to insure a winch for transport and operation anywhere but your home field. Getting permission for ground launching at a different field can be difficult (someone else mentioned in another thread about the lost opportunity to have glider operations to ever be accepted as normal in the U.S.). Not to mention being able to choose a launch height, aero retrieve/transport of gliders, contest towing, etc.

We do need more ground launching in the U.S., but most of our clubs and commercial ops cannot afford time and/or money to do both aerotow and ground launch other than as an occasional exercise.

Dan, a pulley tow launches a glider just fine - but then you need to reset for the next launch. Often, this means untangling the rope. Straight auto tow or winch launch rarely tangles the rope.

There are very few pulley tow operations in the world and cycle time is the usual reason why they gave up on pulleys and moved on to winch launch.


On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 9:16:28 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I once flew for an ESPN video on flying (Secrets of Speed).* One of
> the launch methods used was an auto pulley tow wherein the pulley
> was mounted to the receiver on the back of the car and the cable was
> staked to the ground near mid field.* The car drove in the takeoff
> direction during the launch and, with the 2:1 advantage of the
> pulley, it was every bit as exciting as a winch.* The car drove at
> about 1/2 the speed of the glider.* We were using a 3,400' runway
> and I don't recall the release height, though it was not as high as
> a winch with a full runway length of cable.
>
>
>
>
> On 10/5/2015 5:01 AM, GB wrote:
>
>
>
> Good question. Seems to me reverse car tows(fixed pulley windward car drives toward the glider) would be the way to go. Has there been any sailplane work with car mounted pay out winches? Pay out winches are what the hangglider and paraglider community have mostly settled on using. Both of these solutions somewhat mitigate the space needed to auto tow.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan, 5J

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 5:59:07 PM UTC-6, WB wrote:

> I'm an enthusiastic advocate of ground launching, however, at least in the U.S., tow planes provide operational flexibility that winches and auto launch do not. Towplanes can operate out of fields that are too short/narrow for ground launch operations (getting your winch line out of trees is no fun). Try to take a winch somewhere besides the home field. It can be anything but straightforward to insure a winch for transport and operation anywhere but your home field. Getting permission for ground launching at a different field can be difficult (someone else mentioned in another thread about the lost opportunity to have glider operations to ever be accepted as normal in the U.S.). Not to mention being able to choose a launch height, aero retrieve/transport of gliders, contest towing, etc.
>
> We do need more ground launching in the U.S., but most of our clubs and commercial ops cannot afford time and/or money to do both aerotow and ground launch other than as an occasional exercise.

All of these objections to winch launch have been put to rest. If you want to see small field winch operations, use Google Earth to look at European, particularly German, glider airports. Many are as short as 1000m and surrounded by trees. Just pick club names from OLC and enter them in the GE search field.

Winch launch will never drop the rope anywhere except right in front of the winch unless the rope breaks which is getting very rare with ultra-strong ropes.

If a pilot really thinks a distant tow is necessary, then use a sustainer from a winch launch.

SSA group insurance offers winch coverage for traveling to and operating at any airfield.

From the guy who ran the Cadilac auto-tow camp last year...

"Auto-tow pointers" - Cadillac, MI camp

Gliders: ASW12, ASK21, ASW15, RS15, and some others
Tow vehicle: Late model Ford Fairmont, V8, 305 cubic inch
Tow rope: Initially, dacron 1500 ft The next year spectra 1500ft
Runway length 5200 ft (field elevation - 800 msl)
Average altitude gain 1000 to 1200 ft (occasionally 1500ft)
Get away rate for cross country: 75%

Highlights:
Six pilots auto-tow launch endorsed in one day and a 12-year annual (Thank you Stan & Carol)
Over 100 hours of XC in the 12 from auto-tow in 1 yr

Lowlights: introduced to a club with many solo pilots, not many tow pilots, and left the unit with them for a year. They never used it!

Auto-Tow unit description: 1500 ft.rope on a reel powered by a Ford starter motor 1950's vintage (exposed shaft beyond motor housing) controlled by a dead man type switch. Reel in time about 1 minute. Easily fits in trunk. The emergency release mechanism is a larger copy of Schweizer tow release mounted to a hitch with a rope to the driver. The driver has radio communication to glider. The driver is any person that is willing. The driver is instructed to accelerate smoothly until glider lifts off and then add 5mph unless told otherwise. Normally, this meant (after glider lift off) full to the floorboard (and to remember that the runway does have an end!).

<Note: the glider has a window that, if looked out of, shows the whole operation. So remind the driver as you see her, or him nearing the end.>

For those of you that think this technique is not proper well, ok. For those that are willing, this is a way to launch sailplane with: 1) less cost and 2) no need for a tow pilot or tow aircraft. This auto-towing technique is ideal for any "club" with a willing group of two or more. Oh yes, the safety checks were performed on all gliders used. They all had properly functioning, carefully inspected tow releases.

<sidenote - one fine lady got to boast that she jerked three guys off and kept them all up at the same time>

Sean (still shaking my head at the sidenote).
7T

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 6:18:15 PM UTC-6,
http://www.coloradosoaring.org/thinking_pages/ground_launching/reverse_pulley/default.htm

Reverse pulley is the best way to autotow. Cotswold no longer does this, but did so for about 30 years.

Frank Whiteley

wrote:
> Dan, a pulley tow launches a glider just fine - but then you need to reset for the next launch. Often, this means untangling the rope. Straight auto tow or winch launch rarely tangles the rope.
>
> There are very few pulley tow operations in the world and cycle time is the usual reason why they gave up on pulleys and moved on to winch launch.
>
>
> On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 9:16:28 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > I once flew for an ESPN video on flying (Secrets of Speed).* One of
> > the launch methods used was an auto pulley tow wherein the pulley
> > was mounted to the receiver on the back of the car and the cable was
> > staked to the ground near mid field.* The car drove in the takeoff
> > direction during the launch and, with the 2:1 advantage of the
> > pulley, it was every bit as exciting as a winch.* The car drove at
> > about 1/2 the speed of the glider.* We were using a 3,400' runway
> > and I don't recall the release height, though it was not as high as
> > a winch with a full runway length of cable.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/5/2015 5:01 AM, GB wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Good question. Seems to me reverse car tows(fixed pulley windward car drives toward the glider) would be the way to go. Has there been any sailplane work with car mounted pay out winches? Pay out winches are what the hangglider and paraglider community have mostly settled on using. Both of these solutions somewhat mitigate the space needed to auto tow.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Dan, 5J

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 7:32:02 PM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
> From the guy who ran the Cadilac auto-tow camp last year...
>
> "Auto-tow pointers" - Cadillac, MI camp
>
> Gliders: ASW12, ASK21, ASW15, RS15, and some others
> Tow vehicle: Late model Ford Fairmont, V8, 305 cubic inch
> Tow rope: Initially, dacron 1500 ft The next year spectra 1500ft
> Runway length 5200 ft (field elevation - 800 msl)
> Average altitude gain 1000 to 1200 ft (occasionally 1500ft)
> Get away rate for cross country: 75%
>
> Highlights:
> Six pilots auto-tow launch endorsed in one day and a 12-year annual (Thank you Stan & Carol)
> Over 100 hours of XC in the 12 from auto-tow in 1 yr
>
> Lowlights: introduced to a club with many solo pilots, not many tow pilots, and left the unit with them for a year. They never used it!
>
> Auto-Tow unit description: 1500 ft.rope on a reel powered by a Ford starter motor 1950's vintage (exposed shaft beyond motor housing) controlled by a dead man type switch. Reel in time about 1 minute. Easily fits in trunk. The emergency release mechanism is a larger copy of Schweizer tow release mounted to a hitch with a rope to the driver. The driver has radio communication to glider. The driver is any person that is willing. The driver is instructed to accelerate smoothly until glider lifts off and then add 5mph unless told otherwise. Normally, this meant (after glider lift off) full to the floorboard (and to remember that the runway does have an end!).
>
> <Note: the glider has a window that, if looked out of, shows the whole operation. So remind the driver as you see her, or him nearing the end.>
>
> For those of you that think this technique is not proper well, ok. For those that are willing, this is a way to launch sailplane with: 1) less cost and 2) no need for a tow pilot or tow aircraft. This auto-towing technique is ideal for any "club" with a willing group of two or more. Oh yes, the safety checks were performed on all gliders used. They all had properly functioning, carefully inspected tow releases.
>
> <sidenote - one fine lady got to boast that she jerked three guys off and kept them all up at the same time>
>
> Sean (still shaking my head at the sidenote).
> 7T

The former Enstone GC in the UK used autotow for several years. Parafil was used as it could be dragged along the tarmac without appreciable wear. Parafil is not pulley friendly (they tried). It was easily spliced.
Case study, http://linearcomposites.net/media/parafil_case_study_13.pdf

The club moved on to winches before we wore out the parafil. 1500ft plus launches were done on a 500m length using an XJ-6 Jaguar with 275hp. We just pulled it back to the launch point at 65mph. Near tangled though we did snag a couple of things in the tall grass on the north side of the runway.

That engine replaced the 150hp Bedford diesel in one of the ex-ATC winches. Another winch was refitted with the motor and transmission from a stolen Rolls Royce that was burned on the airfield one night.

I don't think the third ex-ATC winch was ever put into service before the club folded.

Maybe some lurker knows the fate of those winches.

Frank Whiteley

Aéroclub; Vol à Voile Montagne Noire
Airflield; LFMG


http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=582541106288116203547814413979614329 5945686251o.jpg

>The former Enstone GC in the UK used autotow for several years.
Parafil
>wa=
>s used as it could be dragged along the tarmac without
appreciable wear.
>P=
>arafil is not pulley friendly (they tried). It was easily spliced.
>Case study,
http://linearcomposites.net/media/parafil_case_study_13.pdf
>
>The club moved on to winches before we wore out the parafil.
1500ft plus
>l=
>aunches were done on a 500m length using an XJ-6 Jaguar with
275hp. We
>jus=
>t pulled it back to the launch point at 65mph. Near tangled
though we did
>=
>snag a couple of things in the tall grass on the north side of the
runway.
>
>That engine replaced the 150hp Bedford diesel in one of the ex-
ATC
>winches.=
> Another winch was refitted with the motor and transmission from
a stolen
>=
>Rolls Royce that was burned on the airfield one night.
>
>I don't think the third ex-ATC winch was ever put into service
before the
>c=
>lub folded.
>
>Maybe some lurker knows the fate of those winches.
>
>Frank Whiteley

I learned to fly at Enstone in the late 70s but my recollections of
parafil are very different. Once the outer sheath had been worn
through on retrieves the cable broke on about 1 in 5 launches.
Since we were using scrapper cars we mounted the cable
attatchment in the middle of the roof. This solved the problem of
lifting the weight off the rear wheels when towing.
We also built a special which used a Ford Transit pickup with a mid
mounted 4.2litre Jaguar engine. We retained the original axle which
gave us very good acceleration but a top speed of about 60mph.

I now fly at Lasham which used to use Autotow. We now use
modern winches which give better and safer launches to 1700-
2000ft on a normal day. The cost of buying, maintaining and
running costs of autotow were much higher than the winch in the
UK. Gasoline about $7.50 a gallon here. Winch runs on LPG.
>

At 12:43 06 October 2015, Nigel Pocock wrote:
>
>>The former Enstone GC in the UK used autotow for several years.
>Parafil
>>wa=
>>s used as it could be dragged along the tarmac without
>appreciable wear.
>>P=
>>arafil is not pulley friendly (they tried). It was easily spliced.
>>Case study,
>http://linearcomposites.net/media/parafil_case_study_13.pdf
>>
>>The club moved on to winches before we wore out the parafil.
>1500ft plus
>>l=
>>aunches were done on a 500m length using an XJ-6 Jaguar with
>275hp. We
>>jus=
>>t pulled it back to the launch point at 65mph. Near tangled
>though we did
>>=
>>snag a couple of things in the tall grass on the north side of the
>runway.
>>
>>That engine replaced the 150hp Bedford diesel in one of the ex-
>ATC
>>winches.=
>> Another winch was refitted with the motor and transmission from
>a stolen
>>=
>>Rolls Royce that was burned on the airfield one night.
>>
>>I don't think the third ex-ATC winch was ever put into service
>before the
>>c=
>>lub folded.
>>
>>Maybe some lurker knows the fate of those winches.
>>
>>Frank Whiteley
>
>I learned to fly at Enstone in the late 70s but my recollections of
>parafil are very different. Once the outer sheath had been worn
>through on retrieves the cable broke on about 1 in 5 launches.
>Since we were using scrapper cars we mounted the cable
>attatchment in the middle of the roof. This solved the problem of
>lifting the weight off the rear wheels when towing.
>We also built a special which used a Ford Transit pickup with a mid
>mounted 4.2litre Jaguar engine. We retained the original axle which
>gave us very good acceleration but a top speed of about 60mph.
>
>I now fly at Lasham which used to use Autotow. We now use
>modern winches which give better and safer launches to 1700-
>2000ft on a normal day. The cost of buying, maintaining and
>running costs of autotow were much higher than the winch in the
>UK. Gasoline about $7.50 a gallon here. Winch runs on LPG.
>>
For info.
>The RR engine powered winch is at north wales gliding club, we are
putting it back in service as our chevy powered winch destroyed its
gearbox last sunday with wave all over the site so the pw6 pilot the only
launch of the day managed to get a nice wave flight, so the RR will get
another lease of life starting this week end with a bit of luck.
KF.

>

I've had a lot of fun Auto Towing at Sunflower in the last few years. Twice when I've had family visiting, we've taken them up in the 2-33 on Auto Tow, with Leah driving and me flying. Everyone gets involved in the operation, everyone has fun, and it's cheap.

We have a lot of room. We usually start the launch from wherever the glider stopped on landing, usually with around 6000 feet remaining. Usually we use a 2000 foot-ish long rope. Usually we get our 2-33 to around 1000 feet AGL without much extra effort. We could accelerate faster, we could pull harder, and we would have more rope breaks and more wear and tear on the car and the glider. There is a lot of extra wear and tear on everything involved, whether winch launching or auto towing, to get that last 10% of altitude.

When I was giving my grandparents rides and my little sister her first flying lessons on Labor Day, we had a great wind gradient and our best launch in the 2-33 was 1500 AGL. This is on the "nose" aerotow hook.

One of our club members has built a few pulleys but we haven't had a chance to test them out. I am kind of more interested in a 3:1 reduction with a moving and fixed pulley. This allows the towing car to also have a tow release in case the glider can't release. Also reduces the car speed, increases acceleration, and allows you to use less runway.

We've almost exclusively been auto towing the last few years with my 3.6L 2014 Subaru Outback with a homemade schweizer-like tow release in the receiver hitch.

I'd like to get a hitch mounted rope rewinder along with the tow release. Then I think that with a parachute on the glider end we could wind the rope in before the end hit the ground, greatly reducing our wear and tear and not hurting the turn around time much.

Sometimes when I'm dreaming I think that a mobile glider school with an auto tow rig and a two seater on a trailer could be fun. There are a lot of people out there who are interested in flying gliders but just don't live within a convenient distance to a club or commercial operation.

After reading about Casey Aviation's Auto Towing (http://flycasey.com/auto-towing-a-glider/) we got some of the flat pull tape that he was talking about. It is cheap, available in long lengths, and plenty strong enough. Unfortunately it just didn't last at all on our rough old runway and its almost impossible to splice. At least it wasn't an expensive experiment.

At 04:29 06 October 2015, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 7:32:02 PM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
>> From the guy who ran the Cadilac auto-tow camp last year...
>>=20
>> "Auto-tow pointers" - Cadillac, MI camp
>>=20
>> Gliders: ASW12, ASK21, ASW15, RS15, and some others =20
>> Tow vehicle: Late model Ford Fairmont, V8, 305 cubic inch=20
>> Tow rope: Initially, dacron 1500 ft The next year spectra 1500ft
>> Runway length 5200 ft (field elevation - 800 msl)
>> Average altitude gain 1000 to 1200 ft (occasionally 1500ft)=20
>> Get away rate for cross country: 75%
>>=20
>> Highlights: =20
>> Six pilots auto-tow launch endorsed in one day and a 12-year annual
>(Than=
>k you Stan & Carol)
>> Over 100 hours of XC in the 12 from auto-tow in 1 yr=20
>>=20
>> Lowlights: introduced to a club with many solo pilots, not many tow
>pilo=
>ts, and left the unit with them for a year. They never used it!
>>=20
>> Auto-Tow unit description: 1500 ft.rope on a reel powered by a Ford
>star=
>ter motor 1950's vintage (exposed shaft beyond motor housing)
controlled
>by=
> a dead man type switch. Reel in time about 1 minute. Easily fits in
>trun=
>k. The emergency release mechanism is a larger copy of Schweizer tow
>relea=
>se mounted to a hitch with a rope to the driver. The driver has radio
>comm=
>unication to glider. The driver is any person that is willing. The
>driver=
> is instructed to accelerate smoothly until glider lifts off and then add
>5=
>mph unless told otherwise. Normally, this meant (after glider lift off)
>fu=
>ll to the floorboard (and to remember that the runway does have an
end!). =
>=20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> For those of you that think this technique is not proper well, ok. For
>t=
>hose that are willing, this is a way to launch sailplane with: 1) less
>cost=
> and 2) no need for a tow pilot or tow aircraft. This auto-towing
>techniqu=
>e is ideal for any "club" with a willing group of two or more. Oh yes,
>the=
> safety checks were performed on all gliders used. They all had properly
>f=
>unctioning, carefully inspected tow releases. =20
>>=20
>>
>>=20
>> Sean (still shaking my head at the sidenote).
>> 7T
>
>The former Enstone GC in the UK used autotow for several years. Parafil
>wa=
>s used as it could be dragged along the tarmac without appreciable
wear.
>P=
>arafil is not pulley friendly (they tried). It was easily spliced.
>Case study,
http://linearcomposites.net/media/parafil_case_study_13.pdf
>
>The club moved on to winches before we wore out the parafil. 1500ft
plus
>l=
>aunches were done on a 500m length using an XJ-6 Jaguar with 275hp.
We
>jus=
>t pulled it back to the launch point at 65mph. Near tangled though we
did
>=
>snag a couple of things in the tall grass on the north side of the
runway.
>
>That engine replaced the 150hp Bedford diesel in one of the ex-ATC
>winches.=
> Another winch was refitted with the motor and transmission from a
stolen
>=
>Rolls Royce that was burned on the airfield one night.
>
>I don't think the third ex-ATC winch was ever put into service before the
>c=
>lub folded.
>
>Maybe some lurker knows the fate of those winches.
>
>Frank Whiteley
>

For info
The winch with RR engine is at north wales gliding club,
our other winch destroyed it,s gearbox on sunday so the Rolls Royce is to
be put back to work this weekend with some luck.
KF

Thanks, Bill.

I only did a couple of pulley tows for the filming of the ESPN thing.
Some of the raw footage (not shown on TV) shows the rear end of the car
being lifted sufficiently that the driver lost control of the car.
Fortunately the passenger/observer was Emerson Fittipaldi and he reached
across, took the wheel, and straightened out the car. When I released,
it was quite a sight seeing the rope literally slamming down on the
runway. I can easily imagine the tangles this caused in the pulley
system. =-O

Dan

On 10/5/2015 6:18 PM, wrote:


> Dan, a pulley tow launches a glider just fine - but then you need to reset for the next launch. Often, this means untangling the rope. Straight auto tow or winch launch rarely tangles the rope.
>
> There are very few pulley tow operations in the world and cycle time is the usual reason why they gave up on pulleys and moved on to winch launch.
>
>
> On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 9:16:28 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> I once flew for an ESPN video on flying (Secrets of Speed). One of
>> the launch methods used was an auto pulley tow wherein the pulley
>> was mounted to the receiver on the back of the car and the cable was
>> staked to the ground near mid field. The car drove in the takeoff
>> direction during the launch and, with the 2:1 advantage of the
>> pulley, it was every bit as exciting as a winch. The car drove at
>> about 1/2 the speed of the glider. We were using a 3,400' runway
>> and I don't recall the release height, though it was not as high as
>> a winch with a full runway length of cable.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/5/2015 5:01 AM, GB wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Good question. Seems to me reverse car tows(fixed pulley windward car drives toward the glider) would be the way to go. Has there been any sailplane work with car mounted pay out winches? Pay out winches are what the hangglider and paraglider community have mostly settled on using. Both of these solutions somewhat mitigate the space needed to auto tow.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Dan, 5J

--
Dan, 5J

....
I have the raw footage on DVD. Perhaps I can find a "free" video editor
program and pull out the car pulley sequence and upload to google
drive. We'll see...

Dan

On 10/6/2015 9:21 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Thanks, Bill.
>
> I only did a couple of pulley tows for the filming of the ESPN thing.
> Some of the raw footage (not shown on TV) shows the rear end of the
> car being lifted sufficiently that the driver lost control of the
> car. Fortunately the passenger/observer was Emerson Fittipaldi and he
> reached across, took the wheel, and straightened out the car. When I
> released, it was quite a sight seeing the rope literally slamming down
> on the runway. I can easily imagine the tangles this caused in the
> pulley system. =-O
>
> Dan
>
> On 10/5/2015 6:18 PM, wrote:
>
>
>> Dan, a pulley tow launches a glider just fine - but then you need to reset for the next launch. Often, this means untangling the rope. Straight auto tow or winch launch rarely tangles the rope.
>>
>> There are very few pulley tow operations in the world and cycle time is the usual reason why they gave up on pulleys and moved on to winch launch.
>>
>>
>> On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 9:16:28 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> I once flew for an ESPN video on flying (Secrets of Speed). One of
>>> the launch methods used was an auto pulley tow wherein the pulley
>>> was mounted to the receiver on the back of the car and the cable was
>>> staked to the ground near mid field. The car drove in the takeoff
>>> direction during the launch and, with the 2:1 advantage of the
>>> pulley, it was every bit as exciting as a winch. The car drove at
>>> about 1/2 the speed of the glider. We were using a 3,400' runway
>>> and I don't recall the release height, though it was not as high as
>>> a winch with a full runway length of cable.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/5/2015 5:01 AM, GB wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Good question. Seems to me reverse car tows(fixed pulley windward car drives toward the glider) would be the way to go. Has there been any sailplane work with car mounted pay out winches? Pay out winches are what the hangglider and paraglider community have mostly settled on using. Both of these solutions somewhat mitigate the space needed to auto tow.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Dan, 5J
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

--
Dan, 5J

Wonder if they would be interested in upsizing to full on sailplane size?
http://cloudstreetwinch.com/

Pay out winch works great! Our airport manager here won't let me use it here tho...
Enjoy this video from our Alvord Desert Safari:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP8bVgG8xJc

Boggs

Here's another pay out winch video from the other end:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWPbB2hxPKo

Boggs

And another next to the tow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gB1KUrgAu58

Here one that's a little long, 13 minutes, but gives you the view from the glider. The tow starts at about 3 minutes. We get more height when the truck gets up to speed before setting the brake:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3ga-XJ_cdw

Boggs

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 6:45:08 AM UTC-6, Nigel Pocock wrote:
> >The former Enstone GC in the UK used autotow for several years.
> Parafil
> >wa=
> >s used as it could be dragged along the tarmac without
> appreciable wear.
> >P=
> >arafil is not pulley friendly (they tried). It was easily spliced.
> >Case study,
> http://linearcomposites.net/media/parafil_case_study_13.pdf
> >
> >The club moved on to winches before we wore out the parafil.
> 1500ft plus
> >l=
> >aunches were done on a 500m length using an XJ-6 Jaguar with
> 275hp. We
> >jus=
> >t pulled it back to the launch point at 65mph. Near tangled
> though we did
> >=
> >snag a couple of things in the tall grass on the north side of the
> runway.
> >
> >That engine replaced the 150hp Bedford diesel in one of the ex-
> ATC
> >winches.=
> > Another winch was refitted with the motor and transmission from
> a stolen
> >=
> >Rolls Royce that was burned on the airfield one night.
> >
> >I don't think the third ex-ATC winch was ever put into service
> before the
> >c=
> >lub folded.
> >
> >Maybe some lurker knows the fate of those winches.
> >
> >Frank Whiteley
>
> I learned to fly at Enstone in the late 70s but my recollections of
> parafil are very different. Once the outer sheath had been worn
> through on retrieves the cable broke on about 1 in 5 launches.
> Since we were using scrapper cars we mounted the cable
> attatchment in the middle of the roof. This solved the problem of
> lifting the weight off the rear wheels when towing.
> We also built a special which used a Ford Transit pickup with a mid
> mounted 4.2litre Jaguar engine. We retained the original axle which
> gave us very good acceleration but a top speed of about 60mph.
>
> I now fly at Lasham which used to use Autotow. We now use
> modern winches which give better and safer launches to 1700-
> 2000ft on a normal day. The cost of buying, maintaining and
> running costs of autotow were much higher than the winch in the
> UK. Gasoline about $7.50 a gallon here. Winch runs on LPG.
> >

Interesting. I can only recall 2-3 repairs. We knotted the dacron in a protective rubber bumper. We did move in winches within a year, so I really only had a single season with the parafil. Enjoyed the Jag though.

Frank Whiteley

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 11:17:37 AM UTC-6, Waveguru wrote:
> Pay out winch works great! Our airport manager here won't let me use it here tho...
> Enjoy this video from our Alvord Desert Safari:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP8bVgG8xJc
>
> Boggs

A payout winch can be forced to work with a low speed glider like a 2-33 but don't try to launch a heavy composite that way. If you do the math you'll see that the tow car will have to hit nearly 100mph.

When one looks at all the alternatives, it's clear that the cheapest, quickest, simplest way to ground launch a glider is with a winch. Auto tow in all its variations just can't compete.

>
> All of these objections to winch launch have been put to rest. If you want to see small field winch operations, use Google Earth to look at European, particularly German, glider airports. Many are as short as 1000m and surrounded by trees. Just pick club names from OLC and enter them in the GE search field.
>
> Winch launch will never drop the rope anywhere except right in front of the winch unless the rope breaks which is getting very rare with ultra-strong ropes.
>
> If a pilot really thinks a distant tow is necessary, then use a sustainer from a winch launch.
>
> SSA group insurance offers winch coverage for traveling to and operating at any airfield.


I would not classify a 1000m field as particularly short. I have operated winch and auto launch off of shorter fields, but it is not too good for anything but pattern practice. I would say that in some ways winching can do something that aerotow would not do as well: With a winch you only need 1000 feet (or less) of launching/landing area if the winch can be placed a sufficient distance beyond the "runway" end. That opens up a lot of possibilities for flying from non-airports. I agree that when everything works correctly the winch line will not end up in the trees. However, there's always the pilot who forgets to correct for crosswind and drops the rope too far downwind or the line breaks and falls into the trees. Even the synthetics break occasionally. Timely replacement when worn makes breaks unlikely. And with synthetics we no longer have the problem of a highly conductive steel cable on power lines.

Glad to hear that SSA group plan covers winch transport. That may not have always been the case. Or, it might have just been the case that our self mobile winch was not insured for over the road. That winch left us a long time ago. Wish we had it back.

the tow car will have to hit nearly 100mph.
>
I guess you didn't bother to watch the videos, eh Bill? We launched many glass ships to thousands of feet.

Boggs

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 2:37:30 PM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
> the tow car will have to hit nearly 100mph.
> >
> I guess you didn't bother to watch the videos, eh Bill? We launched many glass ships to thousands of feet.
>
> Boggs

Gary, what were your typical truck speeds?

Thanks,
Craig

On Tue, 06 Oct 2015 13:38:01 -0700, WB wrote:

> I would not classify a 1000m field as particularly short.
>
Agreed. With a remotely placed winch, all you need is a launch and
landing area that's about 350-400m square.

In a southwesterly, pretty much our usual wind direction, we operate off
the 'diamond' in front of our club house. This is 390m on the SW axis and
300m across. We set up the launch point halfway along the southerly edge.
The winch is 1200m away at the far end of 22, a grass run 175m wide that
extends out of the diamond.

With this arrangement almost everybody, including many ab-initios, can
land in the first half of the 'diamond' and stop more or less in line
with the launch point, so a landed glider doesn't block the next winch
launch. In this wind the remainder of 22 is only used for aero-tows,
cable breaks and cable break training, though its available as a huge
safety margin if an ab-initio overshoots his first few landings.

Our Robins can easily launch the Puchacz or an ASK-21 from the diamond,
though this is normally only done for the first aero-tow of the day.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

WB, I 'm glad you like winch launching. However, I do have just one tiny nit to pick just for the benefit of those not familiar with winch launch. Pilots don't "drop" the rope, they release it (or more likely, it auto-releases). Then the parachute opens preventing the rope from dropping too fast. That gives the winch operator plenty of time to wind in the rope all the way to the winch before it can hit the ground. There's usually less than 100' of rope left out when the winch stops.

If a winch is capable of it, the transmission can be shifted to overdrive and the 'chute ripped out of the sky at more than 100mph to minimize drift. Of course, the operator has to be absolutely certain he can stop the drum before the 'chute is pulled through the fairlead.




On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 2:38:05 PM UTC-6, WB wrote:
> >
> > All of these objections to winch launch have been put to rest. If you want to see small field winch operations, use Google Earth to look at European, particularly German, glider airports. Many are as short as 1000m and surrounded by trees. Just pick club names from OLC and enter them in the GE search field.
> >
> > Winch launch will never drop the rope anywhere except right in front of the winch unless the rope breaks which is getting very rare with ultra-strong ropes.
> >
> > If a pilot really thinks a distant tow is necessary, then use a sustainer from a winch launch.
> >
> > SSA group insurance offers winch coverage for traveling to and operating at any airfield.
>
>
> I would not classify a 1000m field as particularly short. I have operated winch and auto launch off of shorter fields, but it is not too good for anything but pattern practice. I would say that in some ways winching can do something that aerotow would not do as well: With a winch you only need 1000 feet (or less) of launching/landing area if the winch can be placed a sufficient distance beyond the "runway" end. That opens up a lot of possibilities for flying from non-airports. I agree that when everything works correctly the winch line will not end up in the trees. However, there's always the pilot who forgets to correct for crosswind and drops the rope too far downwind or the line breaks and falls into the trees. Even the synthetics break occasionally. Timely replacement when worn makes breaks unlikely. And with synthetics we no longer have the problem of a highly conductive steel cable on power lines.
>
> Glad to hear that SSA group plan covers winch transport. That may not have always been the case. Or, it might have just been the case that our self mobile winch was not insured for over the road. That winch left us a long time ago. Wish we had it back.

Bill....at best, not accurate.

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 3:37:30 PM UTC-6, Waveguru wrote:
> the tow car will have to hit nearly 100mph.
> >
> I guess you didn't bother to watch the videos, eh Bill? We launched many glass ships to thousands of feet.
>
> Boggs

Yeah, I watched your video.

Out in the prairies, trees and power lines
are less prevalent than center pivot
irrigators and barbed wire fences. The
neighboring farmers might let us put in
gates to run the winch line another 3000'
+, but I'm wondering if we could mount
high pulleys at the fence lines to avoid
rubbing against fence posts etc.

If we could get a drone with PowerFLARM
to pull the line back, life would be really
good except for the pipeline patrol guy.

We figured the truck speed as stall speed plus 10 or 15 minus the wind speed. At the Alvord we had to add five or 10 for density altitude. I don't think we ever went more than 75mph, usually 60-65 We never launched any ships with water. The slower you can go and still get the job done the better. It's really important for there to be good three way communication between pilot, driver, and winch operator. Having the cable pressure set so that in lift the glider just climbs faster and in sink it doesn't pay out at all takes out the wild fluctuations in airspeed we used to get with the solid wire auto tow. It's much safer and the cable rarely breaks. Only when you get a nick in it some how.

Boggs

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 8:45:05 PM UTC-6, George Haeh wrote:
> Out in the prairies, trees and power lines
> are less prevalent than center pivot
> irrigators and barbed wire fences. The
> neighboring farmers might let us put in
> gates to run the winch line another 3000'
> +, but I'm wondering if we could mount
> high pulleys at the fence lines to avoid
> rubbing against fence posts etc.
>
> If we could get a drone with PowerFLARM
> to pull the line back, life would be really
> good except for the pipeline patrol guy.

Would take a bit more time to retrieve the rope, but an wheel rim on a shaft on top of a fence topping frame would probably work if done properly, though a gate would be better and much more desireable. Retrieve drivers would have to be able to drive in a straight line. Not too hard on a flat surface.

There was a club that reportedly used a wheel rim of some sort on a post to guide the rope around a runway dogleg during the start of the launch. It may have been in the UK.

Frank Whiteley

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 8:25:43 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> WB, I 'm glad you like winch launching. However, I do have just one tiny nit to pick just for the benefit of those not familiar with winch launch. Pilots don't "drop" the rope, they release it (or more likely, it auto-releases). Then the parachute opens preventing the rope from dropping too fast. That gives the winch operator plenty of time to wind in the rope all the way to the winch before it can hit the ground. There's usually less than 100' of rope left out when the winch stops.
>
> If a winch is capable of it, the transmission can be shifted to overdrive and the 'chute ripped out of the sky at more than 100mph to minimize drift.. Of course, the operator has to be absolutely certain he can stop the drum before the 'chute is pulled through

Yes, most of the time we did just let it back release. I would often shift our winch (the Eagle Winch, now at Philadelphia) into second gear to recover the line. Usually could lay it down right in front of the winch. Worked even better after the steel cable was replaced with Spectra.

As promised, the following clip was copied from raw film shot for an
ESPN show, Secrets of Speed. The ground launch begins around 30 seconds
into the clip but I left the low pass just for fun. This shows what
happens to the tow car when the glider (me in my LS-6a) pull too
aggressively at the top.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k9a4v2wbg9fok9r/Ground%20Launch.mp4?dl=0

On 10/6/2015 9:35 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> ...
> I have the raw footage on DVD. Perhaps I can find a "free" video
> editor program and pull out the car pulley sequence and upload to
> google drive. We'll see...
>
> Dan
>
> On 10/6/2015 9:21 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Thanks, Bill.
>>
>> I only did a couple of pulley tows for the filming of the ESPN
>> thing. Some of the raw footage (not shown on TV) shows the rear end
>> of the car being lifted sufficiently that the driver lost control of
>> the car. Fortunately the passenger/observer was Emerson Fittipaldi
>> and he reached across, took the wheel, and straightened out the car.
>> When I released, it was quite a sight seeing the rope literally
>> slamming down on the runway. I can easily imagine the tangles this
>> caused in the pulley system. =-O
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> On 10/5/2015 6:18 PM, wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Dan, a pulley tow launches a glider just fine - but then you need to reset for the next launch. Often, this means untangling the rope. Straight auto tow or winch launch rarely tangles the rope.
>>>
>>> There are very few pulley tow operations in the world and cycle time is the usual reason why they gave up on pulleys and moved on to winch launch.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 9:16:28 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>>> I once flew for an ESPN video on flying (Secrets of Speed). One of
>>>> the launch methods used was an auto pulley tow wherein the pulley
>>>> was mounted to the receiver on the back of the car and the cable was
>>>> staked to the ground near mid field. The car drove in the takeoff
>>>> direction during the launch and, with the 2:1 advantage of the
>>>> pulley, it was every bit as exciting as a winch. The car drove at
>>>> about 1/2 the speed of the glider. We were using a 3,400' runway
>>>> and I don't recall the release height, though it was not as high as
>>>> a winch with a full runway length of cable.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/5/2015 5:01 AM, GB wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good question. Seems to me reverse car tows(fixed pulley windward car drives toward the glider) would be the way to go. Has there been any sailplane work with car mounted pay out winches? Pay out winches are what the hangglider and paraglider community have mostly settled on using. Both of these solutions somewhat mitigate the space needed to auto tow.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Dan, 5J
>>
>> --
>> Dan, 5J
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

--
Dan, 5J

On Wednesday, October 7, 2015 at 6:06:34 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> As promised, the following clip was copied from raw film shot for an
> ESPN show, Secrets of Speed.* The ground launch begins around 30
> seconds into the clip but I left the low pass just for fun.* This
> shows what happens to the tow car when the glider (me in my LS-6a)
> pull too aggressively at the top.
>
>
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/k9a4v2wbg9fok9r/Ground%20Launch.mp4?dl=0
>
>
>
>
> On 10/6/2015 9:35 AM, Dan Marotta
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> ...
>
> I have the raw footage on DVD.* Perhaps I can find a "free" video
> editor program and pull out the car pulley sequence and upload to
> google drive.* We'll see...
>
>
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> On 10/6/2015 9:21 AM, Dan Marotta
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Thanks, Bill.
>
>
>
> I only did a couple of pulley tows for the filming of the ESPN
> thing.* Some of the raw footage (not shown on TV) shows the rear
> end of the car being lifted sufficiently that the driver lost
> control of the car.* Fortunately the passenger/observer was
> Emerson Fittipaldi and he reached across, took the wheel, and
> straightened out the car.* When I released, it was quite a sight
> seeing the rope literally slamming down on the runway.* I can
> easily imagine the tangles this caused in the pulley system. =-O
>
>
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> On 10/5/2015 6:18 PM,
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dan, a pulley tow launches a glider just fine - but then you need to reset for the next launch. Often, this means untangling the rope. Straight auto tow or winch launch rarely tangles the rope.
>
> There are very few pulley tow operations in the world and cycle time is the usual reason why they gave up on pulleys and moved on to winch launch.
>
>
> On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 9:16:28 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>
> I once flew for an ESPN video on flying (Secrets of Speed).* One of
> the launch methods used was an auto pulley tow wherein the pulley
> was mounted to the receiver on the back of the car and the cable was
> staked to the ground near mid field.* The car drove in the takeoff
> direction during the launch and, with the 2:1 advantage of the
> pulley, it was every bit as exciting as a winch.* The car drove at
> about 1/2 the speed of the glider.* We were using a 3,400' runway
> and I don't recall the release height, though it was not as high as
> a winch with a full runway length of cable.
>
>
>
>
> On 10/5/2015 5:01 AM, GB wrote:
>
>
>
> Good question. Seems to me reverse car tows(fixed pulley windward car drives toward the glider) would be the way to go. Has there been any sailplane work with car mounted pay out winches? Pay out winches are what the hangglider and paraglider community have mostly settled on using. Both of these solutions somewhat mitigate the space needed to auto tow.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan, 5J
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan, 5J
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan, 5J
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan, 5J

Yep. That's why we had 400 pounds of bricks in the trunk of our autolaunch car.

Frank W. What kind of wire are people using and where to get it, Please. Just now learning about winch use.

On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 1:27:33 PM UTC-6, Stephen Damon wrote:
> Frank W. What kind of wire are people using and where to get it, Please. Just now learning about winch use.

WRT Reverse Pulley, wire was 13 gauge BS5216 'Shiney Bright" piano wire. 10 gauge was tried but the weight caused flats to wear more quickly on the 'memory' coils in the wire, so would break more often. No idea where to get in bulk. Not sure this would be insurable in the US. The Cotswold system was retired a few years ago. There was another system at Essex GC at North Weald also. Rather different design with high inertial pulleys.

Parafil is a sole-source product AFAIK. Google is your friend.

Winching in the US. We formerly used solid wire, then migrated to 3/16" 7/7 galvanized steel wire rope. Not insurable under the SSA Group Plan any longer. Now using Amsteel Blue. I have a vendor that has been pretty consistent with best pricing. However, it may be possible to secure Plasma 12 (virtually the same) for similar but I've never pushed a distributor for best price. UHMWPE ropes come in different flavors. The ropes mentioned are the higher performance brands. Dyneema 75 is the base fiber for Amsteel Blue. Spectra is the base product for Plasma12 There is a Yahoo group called winchdesign. Become a member.

Frank Whiteley

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 1:27:24 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Anyway...back to work.

Aaarrggg! Stuff like that gives us nightmares Sean...

One reason winch or auto tows are not more popular is that you are released over the airpark. In an aero tow you can be towed to the lift before releasing. Yes, I know usually on soft days there is a thermal just as one turns downwind to base, but that is not the best place to thermal.

> One reason winch or auto tows are not more popular is that you are released
> over the airpark. In an aero tow you can be towed to the lift before
> releasing. Yes, I know usually on soft days there is a thermal just as one
> turns downwind to base, but that is not the best place to thermal.

Hmmm...

I suspect this "truth" is more a statement of "the way aerotows normally are"
than "the realities of usable lift distribution." Reality as a self-fulfilling
prophecy, maybe?

In any event, BTDT insofar as brain-picking for "local knowledge" and
"locations of house thermals," but my experience throughout launch sites
(mostly aerotow) in the intermountain west (mostly Colorado and New Mexico)
has me concluding I can't think of one locale where it's *necessary* to "tow
over there" in order to find usable lift. Sure, some plains sites along the
east slope of the Colorado Rockies tend to start later than a tow into nearby
uplands, but my observation has been very few of the locals routinely take
advantage of that fact when time of launch is considered as a function of
release point. IOW, many tows "go to the hills" just because they can, and not
because it's necessary. Every single one of my launch sites has had convective
lift with easy reach of "above pattern height" releases, for ships of the
ubiquitous 2-33->35:1 performance range.

As for auto towing (exposed to that before winching, I was), popularity (or
lack thereof) has to do - so I reckon - with lack of familiarity; neither auto
towing or winching have been "popular" ("common" is probably a better
descriptor) in the U.S. because whatever critical mass may once have existed
disappeared when "cheap towplanes" became the norm after WW-II. Where they
exist(ed), my experience has been both were "hugely popular."

Bob W.

On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 10:05:15 AM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> One reason winch or auto tows are not more popular is that you are released over the airpark. In an aero tow you can be towed to the lift before releasing. Yes, I know usually on soft days there is a thermal just as one turns downwind to base, but that is not the best place to thermal.

If you can get 2000' - 2500' over the airport, there's no need for a distant tow. If you disagree, get a turbo.

If you can find a thermal, why aero tow? If you can't, there probably aren't any so why aero tow?

On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 5:59:49 PM UTC-5, >
> If you can get 2000' - 2500' over the airport, there's no need for a distant tow. If you disagree, get a turbo.
>
> If you can find a thermal, why aero tow? If you can't, there probably aren't any so why aero tow?

Well, if your glider field is only 2400' long, with a highway at one end and a road at the other, you pretty much have to aero tow. We would love to have a winch at SLSA, but our field is just too short, and we have 2 nice Pawnees and a nice 180 Supercub, and our tows are cheap - so THAT is why we don't use a winch (trust me, we have looked at it and done the math...).

But for clubs that have access to a nice long airport, I agree that a modern winch is definitely the way to go!

Kirk
66

I don't think I've ever felt the rear ended get light on my truck. We've used Dodge Ram 2500, my 2007 5.7L Tundra, and a newer Toyota FJ with no reports of rear end lift.
BillT

When I started ground launching, I was told that the glider taking off
often kicks off a thermal is there was a bubble of warm air that the
glider passed through. Because of that, on my ground launch safaris, I
always made a U-turn after release and flew back down the runway. I got
away every time from about 700'. Maybe I was just lucky...

On 10/9/2015 4:30 PM, BobW wrote:
>> One reason winch or auto tows are not more popular is that you are
>> released
>> over the airpark. In an aero tow you can be towed to the lift before
>> releasing. Yes, I know usually on soft days there is a thermal just
>> as one
>> turns downwind to base, but that is not the best place to thermal.
>
> Hmmm...
>
> I suspect this "truth" is more a statement of "the way aerotows
> normally are" than "the realities of usable lift distribution."
> Reality as a self-fulfilling prophecy, maybe?
>
> In any event, BTDT insofar as brain-picking for "local knowledge" and
> "locations of house thermals," but my experience throughout launch
> sites (mostly aerotow) in the intermountain west (mostly Colorado and
> New Mexico) has me concluding I can't think of one locale where it's
> *necessary* to "tow over there" in order to find usable lift. Sure,
> some plains sites along the east slope of the Colorado Rockies tend to
> start later than a tow into nearby uplands, but my observation has
> been very few of the locals routinely take advantage of that fact when
> time of launch is considered as a function of release point. IOW, many
> tows "go to the hills" just because they can, and not because it's
> necessary. Every single one of my launch sites has had convective lift
> with easy reach of "above pattern height" releases, for ships of the
> ubiquitous 2-33->35:1 performance range.
>
> As for auto towing (exposed to that before winching, I was),
> popularity (or lack thereof) has to do - so I reckon - with lack of
> familiarity; neither auto towing or winching have been "popular"
> ("common" is probably a better descriptor) in the U.S. because
> whatever critical mass may once have existed disappeared when "cheap
> towplanes" became the norm after WW-II. Where they exist(ed), my
> experience has been both were "hugely popular."
>
> Bob W.

--
Dan, 5J

From 1995 - 2000 we had a little club that operated mostly with autotow. The biggest expense was, eventually, overhauling the CV joints of the Dodge Ram, eaten by the owner.
I wrote a little instruction manual one weekend in 2000. Behind every recommendation in this is an un-told story.
http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/GroundLaunch/index.html

http://www.ssa.org/Archive/ViewIssue.aspx?year=1998&month=10&page=1

This is a article in soaring by Tom Hardy. it describes his experience gathering a group of students and doing low level auto tows runs up and down the runway at a low flight level. I remember reading this when it first came out and was impressed at how much fun it seemed and and quick way to get alot of budding pilots stick time. I met and flew with Mr Hardy in Marfa back in the late 90's. He was quite elderly at the time yet drove there alone, rigged and flew, I was impressed.
T

Start your training in winch land and you get hundreds of low altitude releases. You get quite good at climbing out and recognizing the need to give up and enter the pattern. Even better, do winch training when you're a kid and your brain is a sponge.

Train with aerotow, and you take a relatively small number of 3000 foot tows and just enough pattern tows to achieve PTS landing standards. Climb outs from pattern tows are rare. If you have a CFI-G on board, and you might climb out if the lift is solid and easy when you release.

Move on to XC, fly less frequently, land once a day, and see a regression in landing proficiency. Make an effort to maintain landing proficiency.

Having trained with aerotow exclusively, I'll release at 1300 in reliable lift, but if I don't immediately climb, I head for the pattern. I've never practiced the more subtle decision making that one needs for relatively safe 'low saves'. I avoid struggling for lift below 1300.

If I changed my home airport to a place with a nice winch, a big flat field, and smooth low altitude lift (and not much sink, gusts and wind shear), I'd roll back my training, take a few hundred winch tows over a summer, and fill the low altitude flying gaps in my training. Maybe some place in Germany... The only thing that I've ever practiced below 1300 is circling in smooth easy lift and landing.

I'm an adequate and well-trained pilot for how I fly. If I were a 'natural pilot', I might feel differently. Going to a one-off, auto/winch towing camp would be a good experience, but I'd not have too much confidence in my fresh ground launch endorsement until I did a few hundred launches. People who did their initial training with ground launch have deeply rooted skills that I don't have. I could probably get a ground launch endorsement with a brief effort, but my skills would be thin.

I get stuck on the attitude of "giving up and heading for the pattern".
What works for me is to keep trying until I must lower the gear, turn
base, and land. There's no pattern (for me, at least) when flying that
low. Pick a a touchdown spot early, on airport or off, and work the
lift until you feel that your touchdown spot will soon become out of
reach. Maybe you'll drift to a location where there's another safe
landing spot, maybe not. The comfort comes from developing that feeling
for the glider and its response to your input.

On 10/11/2015 8:34 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Start your training in winch land and you get hundreds of low altitude releases. You get quite good at climbing out and recognizing the need to give up and enter the pattern. Even better, do winch training when you're a kid and your brain is a sponge.
>
> Train with aerotow, and you take a relatively small number of 3000 foot tows and just enough pattern tows to achieve PTS landing standards. Climb outs from pattern tows are rare. If you have a CFI-G on board, and you might climb out if the lift is solid and easy when you release.
>
> Move on to XC, fly less frequently, land once a day, and see a regression in landing proficiency. Make an effort to maintain landing proficiency.
>
> Having trained with aerotow exclusively, I'll release at 1300 in reliable lift, but if I don't immediately climb, I head for the pattern. I've never practiced the more subtle decision making that one needs for relatively safe 'low saves'. I avoid struggling for lift below 1300.
>
> If I changed my home airport to a place with a nice winch, a big flat field, and smooth low altitude lift (and not much sink, gusts and wind shear), I'd roll back my training, take a few hundred winch tows over a summer, and fill the low altitude flying gaps in my training. Maybe some place in Germany... The only thing that I've ever practiced below 1300 is circling in smooth easy lift and landing.
>
> I'm an adequate and well-trained pilot for how I fly. If I were a 'natural pilot', I might feel differently. Going to a one-off, auto/winch towing camp would be a good experience, but I'd not have too much confidence in my fresh ground launch endorsement until I did a few hundred launches. People who did their initial training with ground launch have deeply rooted skills that I don't have. I could probably get a ground launch endorsement with a brief effort, but my skills would be thin.
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

Hi Sean another small video of a car Launch from this years Safari to the Kerry Beaches. Typical Irish Gliding weather - low cloudbase, weak ridge lift and rain, a lot worse than what you had in Chilhowee!

Regards
Bruno

Sorry here is the link
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=NnhoE7G68YM

On Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 10:16:34 AM UTC-5, Muttley wrote:
> Sorry here is the link
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=NnhoE7G68YM

Wonderful! Is this the beach at Inch?

Years and Years ago, when a mere student pilot on vacation, we stumbled on a similar operation there. Similar weather - the wind was really howling - similar K13 - but I just watched for a while.

On 10/11/2015 9:16 AM, Muttley wrote:
> Sorry here is the link
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=NnhoE7G68YM
>
So cool! Except for the water (on the ground, I mean, ha ha) that took me back
to my early training days in Cumberland, MD when - for lack of a better idea -
I'd go to the field on similar days, often there to find my instructor (who
lived 3 hours away), insisting I take a tow in similar low-cloudbase,
drizzling, superficially gloomy conditions. Many times we'd find
intermittently usable convective lift, and it wasn't long after I got my
license I figured out I'd been also learning a whole heckuva lot more about
the atmosphere and in-flight judgment, too. (Thanks, Tom!)

Man, it is FUN to soar on "unsoarable" days. It's even more fun to be having &
able to do so when XC!

Bob W.

On 10/11/2015 9:09 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I get stuck on the attitude of "giving up and heading for the pattern".
> What works for me is to keep trying until I must lower the gear, turn base,
> and land. There's no pattern (for me, at least) when flying that low.
> Pick a a touchdown spot early, on airport or off, and work the lift until
> you feel that your touchdown spot will soon become out of reach. Maybe
> you'll drift to a location where there's another safe landing spot, maybe
> not. The comfort comes from developing that feeling for the glider and its
> response to your input.

Pretty much, "What Dan said." Where-n-when I obtained my license was a shared
field (Cumberland, MD) and I had it beat into my skull to "NEVER be trying to
soar below pattern altitude (or you'll screw it up for gliding here, and quite
possibly also do somethings else stupid)!!!" So the first question the Chief
Instructor (not mine, but one from whom I'd heard the above message) asked me
after I'd abandoned a 5-hour attempt after approximately 4 hours and 55
minutes late on an overcast afternoon during which there'd been essentially
zero other traffic of any kind was, "What'd you quit circling for? There was
nobody around!" I'd known that, but...and the question didn't diminish the
bloom on my rose one iota.

Fast forward a few years and maybe a couple hundred total soaring hours to
Boulder, CO, another (almost guaranteed-to-be-busy) shared airport. There,
simple self-preservation is usually sufficient for Joe Average Glider Pilot to
realize on his own that circling down/below pattern altitude as if the sky
isn't a shared resource, is dangerously foolish, with or without instructor or
peer input. That said, the relatively busy pattern entry sky is simultaneously
a superb training location for improving one's situational awareness when
simultaneously trying to avoid having to land. Over the years there've been
times I pulled the plug as high as (say) 1300' agl, and other times I've hung
on to below 1000' agl delaying my pattern waiting for less congested
pattern-or-field conditions, and (rarely) some times landing farther down the
field was the safest and sanest choice, ground-convenience be damned. I can
recall only twice when my "Shoot - landing required!" planning didn't result
in my desired outcome, once due to a grossly situationally-unaware, visiting,
bozo glider pilot who barged into the pattern from an unapproved/"wind-wrong"
direction at about 500' agl, and once from a local pilot burning off several
thousand feet of altitude in an almighty rush to get on the ground "just
because." In both cases, I simply landed well down the runway to avoid 'em.
Point being, there's "no guaranteed magic" about a height-agl number when it
comes to pattern planning, and if Joe Pilot insists on thinking there is, he's
setting himself up for (at the very least) some future disappointments.

That was all in my mid-twenties, ~40 years ago.

Bob - head on a swivel is good! - W.

On Sun, 11 Oct 2015 09:09:00 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

> I get stuck on the attitude of "giving up and heading for the pattern".
> What works for me is to keep trying until I must lower the gear, turn
> base, and land. There's no pattern (for me, at least) when flying that
> low. Pick a a touchdown spot early, on airport or off, and work the
> lift until you feel that your touchdown spot will soon become out of
> reach. Maybe you'll drift to a location where there's another safe
> landing spot, maybe not. The comfort comes from developing that feeling
> for the glider and its response to your input.
>
Well said.

In addition, the 'several hundred' winch launches shouldn't be needed: a
good summer's local soaring should do the job for a signed-off solo
pilot. Realistically thats no more than 100 launches at the outside.

Don't forget that all the critical stuff, such as being able to fly
approaches from any point round the field onto any sensible run on the
field and getting rid of any fixation on using local landmarks when
judging circuits and landings, should have been covered pre-solo.
Similarly, dealing with cable breaks and winch failures at various
heights and stages in the launch should have been adequately covered
before getting the winch sign-off.

I did essentially all my training on the winch, soloing on my 80th flight
and being sent off in a Junior to complete Silver C with the distance
flight (off the winch) as my 207th launch as soon as I've been signed off
for the Bronze XC endorsement. A quick logbook scan says that, of those
207 flights, 11 were aero tows [1] and 4 were in an SF-25 TMG[2].

[1] That was for a spin demo in our Puchacz. Our summer instructor that
year knew how to spin an ASK-21 without any tail weights, etc. and so I
got my spin sign-offs in the ASK-21 with him off winch launches on good,
thermally days

[2] three of these SF-25 flights were normal take-offs. The remaining one
was a winch launch - I was visiting Nympsfield and got offered a ride
over to Aston Down (my first on type) in an SF-25, which was fitted with
a winch hook on its u/c strut. Its owner had it winched for the return
flight to show me what it could do. It felt very odd to be going up the
wire with the prop brake set to keep the prop clear of the cable and one
blade stationary in front of us (a 3-blader before you ask). Once
released at 1300, we glided around a bit before making an air start at
900 ft and flying back to NYM to soar the ridge a bit before landing.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 8:39:50 AM UTC-7, Sarah wrote:
> On Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 10:16:34 AM UTC-5, Muttley wrote:
> > Sorry here is the link
> > https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=NnhoE7G68YM
>
> Wonderful! Is this the beach at Inch?
>
> Years and Years ago, when a mere student pilot on vacation, we stumbled on a similar operation there. Similar weather - the wind was really howling - similar K13 - but I just watched for a while.

Instead of bug wipers they need window wipers!

On Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 11:09:08 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I get stuck on the attitude of "giving up and heading for the
> pattern".* What works for me is to keep trying until I must lower
> the gear, turn base, and land.* There's no pattern (for me, at
> least) when flying that low.* Pick a a touchdown spot early, on
> airport or off, and work the lift until you feel that your touchdown
> spot will soon become out of reach.* Maybe you'll drift to a
> location where there's another safe landing spot, maybe not.* The
> comfort comes from developing that feeling for the glider and its
> response to your input.

> This is a practice that may work for you, but is anywhere from a little unsafe to really dangerous for others.
How does the guy flying a regular pattern deal with these antics?
There are many good reasons to know when to stop soaring and start landing, the top of the list being you are much less likely to crash.
Dan may make it work for him but I'm on record as saying it is bad practice and sets a terrible example.
UH

>
>
>

On Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 4:39:50 PM UTC+1, Sarah wrote:
> On Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 10:16:34 AM UTC-5, Muttley wrote:
> > Sorry here is the link
> > https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=NnhoE7G68YM
>
> Wonderful! Is this the beach at Inch?
>
> Years and Years ago, when a mere student pilot on vacation, we stumbled on a similar operation there. Similar weather - the wind was really howling - similar K13 - but I just watched for a while.

Yes this Launch is from Inch Beach but I think in a KA8.

Bruno

Not everything can be said in a simple paragraph; there are nuances,
pop-ups, what-ifs, etc., and there's not enough time to mention all of
them here. What I'm talking about is skill, practice, observation,
planning, and, most of all, judgement, and apparently from some of the
attitudes I read here, there's not enough of the latter.

Making a low save away from the airport, there are not the pattern
issues mentioned. This is my field and I'll do what I want. ...Unless
there's another glider also needing to land. Most often if that's the
case, the other pilot also has some of what it takes to be a safe glider
pilot or he wouldn't be in the same situation (stretching his wings) so
I trust him and assume he trusts me not to put each other into danger.

If low at the airport and trying to make a save, I'll consider pattern
issues. Is it a small strip? A single runway? Other traffic in the
pattern or in the area? Am I positioned for opposite traffic? Do the
winds permit a safe landing from that position? Will there be room? I
could go on with what-ifs for quite some time, but I hope you get the
idea. Where I fly there are two wide runways, each approximately 7,000'
long and very little traffic. Takeoff staging is about 1,700' from the
threshold of the runway and landings routinely exit on the exceptionally
wide (500' at the narrowest) staging area behind the launch. There are
also two parallel taxiways to land on, if necessary.

So, do you call all of this thought and planning and situational
awareness bad practice? It seems to me that less experienced pilots
would be better served by seeing what is possible in unusual situations
rather than being hobbled by one simple rule for every situation. I'll
go on record stating that exercising flexibility and judgement is safer
than fixed protocol every time.

On 10/11/2015 5:05 PM, wrote:
> On Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 11:09:08 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> I get stuck on the attitude of "giving up and heading for the
>> pattern". What works for me is to keep trying until I must lower
>> the gear, turn base, and land. There's no pattern (for me, at
>> least) when flying that low. Pick a a touchdown spot early, on
>> airport or off, and work the lift until you feel that your touchdown
>> spot will soon become out of reach. Maybe you'll drift to a
>> location where there's another safe landing spot, maybe not. The
>> comfort comes from developing that feeling for the glider and its
>> response to your input.
>> This is a practice that may work for you, but is anywhere from a little unsafe to really dangerous for others.
> How does the guy flying a regular pattern deal with these antics?
> There are many good reasons to know when to stop soaring and start landing, the top of the list being you are much less likely to crash.
> Dan may make it work for him but I'm on record as saying it is bad practice and sets a terrible example.
> UH
>
>>
>>
>>

--
Dan, 5J

kirk.stant wrote 2015/10/10 at 01:54:

> Well, if your glider field is only 2400' long, with a highway at one
> end and a road at the other, you pretty much have to aero tow. We
> would love to have a winch at SLSA, but our field is just too short,
> and we have 2 nice Pawnees and a nice 180 Supercub, and our tows are
> cheap - so THAT is why we don't use a winch (trust me, we have
> looked at it and done the math...).
>
> But for clubs that have access to a nice long airport, I agree that
> a modern winch is definitely the way to go!

if it's this location:

,1389m/data=!3m1!1e3>

=> then you could - if according to local laws / rules, which I don't
know - perhaps place the "launching runway" (I don't know the correct
term in english) a bit more in the east, where your grass strip is
longer, so you could start respectively winch from a point more in
south. The distance between plane and winch would grow to about 2,900
ft., if Google does measure it correct. That's not worse than at our place:

,1102m/data=!3m1!1e3>

About 2,600 ft. distance between winch and starting point, and the
options of emergency land-outs are not really better than yours, if
I estimate this right from the google map's view.

We almost only use a winch to launch our gliders ... winch has 2 drums,
7 mm steel cable, a 330 hp Turbo Diesel engine with torque converter and
fixed transmission. Max. release height is up to 1,500 ft. (wood: K8,
K6) or about 1,100-1,200 ft. (glass ships), depending on wind speed,
winch driver's and pilot's skill :-)

Given a good day, XC distances flown from our field are up to 1,000 km -
given a bad day, just training pattern.

regards
Werner

On Monday, October 12, 2015 at 2:19:37 PM UTC-5, Werner Schmidt wrote:

> if it's this location:
>
> ,1389m/data=!3m1!1e3>
>
> => then you could - if according to local laws / rules, which I don't
> know - perhaps place the "launching runway" (I don't know the correct
> term in english) a bit more in the east, where your grass strip is
> longer, so you could start respectively winch from a point more in
> south. The distance between plane and winch would grow to about 2,900
> ft., if Google does measure it correct. That's not worse than at our place:
>
> ,1102m/data=!3m1!1e3>
>
> About 2,600 ft. distance between winch and starting point, and the
> options of emergency land-outs are not really better than yours, if
> I estimate this right from the google map's view.
>
> We almost only use a winch to launch our gliders ... winch has 2 drums,
> 7 mm steel cable, a 330 hp Turbo Diesel engine with torque converter and
> fixed transmission. Max. release height is up to 1,500 ft. (wood: K8,
> K6) or about 1,100-1,200 ft. (glass ships), depending on wind speed,
> winch driver's and pilot's skill :-)
>
> Given a good day, XC distances flown from our field are up to 1,000 km -
> given a bad day, just training pattern.
>
> regards
> Werner

Werner,

You found us! Yes, we could use 2600 of the current runway for taking off (the threshold is displaced for landing over the road, that doesn't apply for takeoffs). We have looked at that - and so far the consensus it that it just isn't worth the effort.

We have talked about trying to get a winch demo at our field to find out it we should look more carefully at a winch - but as we already have 2 nice Pawnees, there is not much interest.

As an aside, one of the disadvantages of using aero tow is that everybody gets used to 3000' tows and can't thermal down low! Even on booming days I'll tow them through the house thermal at 2000' but they will grimly hang on then release in sink, spot on 3000' agl. Arrggghh!

But I will bring up your point at our next club meeting (tomorrow) - maybe we can get some interest going. I for one would love to have a winch option!

(But I do love towing with the Pawnee... ;^)

Cheers,

Kirk

On Monday, October 12, 2015 at 11:06:31 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> So, do you call all of this thought and planning and situational
> awareness bad practice?* It seems to me that less experienced pilots
> would be better served by seeing what is possible in unusual
> situations rather than being hobbled by one simple rule for every
> situation.*

The point that I was trying to make in my original post is that pilots who make their first 100 or so launches with a winch, gain experience with low level flying and develop instincts to do it relatively safely (the record suggests). People like me who trained with 3000 foot tows and 'pattern tows' do not get low level 'climb out' experience and our instincts for low level flying are rather underdeveloped. There not much deliberation and weighing of options when releasing off a 'pattern tow' at the 'Initial Point'.

The fact that you feel so comfortable at low altitude suggests that you picked up the skills to do it at some point in your extensive flying career.

My SOP of committing to landing at 1000-1300 AGL means that I don't have to rely on instincts that I don't have. Sure it would be better if I was more comfortable with doing lower 'saves'. Maybe that will come in time. I get a fair bit of practice scraping for lift at fairly low AGL over local ridges, but I have the option of skipping out over the valley and entering the pattern at 1000 AGL. It's all relative. I've seen one of the local old timers, circling extremely low above the saddle on the ridge... but he is like 85... and he has a wife on standby for his notoriously frequent retrieves.

Didn't somebody have a winch down near St.Louis? I doubt you'll find a Demo winch in the midwest. Cross Country up in Faribault might come to you but it will cost a mint. What you might do is form a group to go and do some site visits and clinics. You might ask them to simulate your field length. No matter what you discover you won't change the minds of the "experts" but you will learn a lot and you'll be suprised at some of those who do convert. Our club started a project about 2 years ago and we will be taking delivery of our winch in a month or so. Our runway is about 3000ft long.
It can be done...
-Doug

I did my first 100+ flights as a private pilot on auto two. In Hobbs we used a 2000 ft wire, on 8000 ft of paved runway. In Odessa we used a 1200 ft poly rope on a 5000 ft paved runway. On the short rope we could get a launch of 800-900 feet in a 1-26. It was fun, and cheap! The best thing ( other than the price) was the fact that you had to get good at scratching around in whatever you could find. Those "scratching" skills have come in handy a few times for sure!

If you have a long paved runway, 5000 ft or more, auto tow is a great way to fly.


John

Bruno. That is really cool!!!! Thx for sharing!

Sean
7T

On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 4:51:51 AM UTC+3, wrote:
> I did my first 100+ flights as a private pilot on auto two. In Hobbs we used a 2000 ft wire, on 8000 ft of paved runway. In Odessa we used a 1200 ft poly rope on a 5000 ft paved runway. On the short rope we could get a launch of 800-900 feet in a 1-26. It was fun, and cheap! The best thing ( other than the price) was the fact that you had to get good at scratching around in whatever you could find. Those "scratching" skills have come in handy a few times for sure!
>
> If you have a long paved runway, 5000 ft or more, auto tow is a great way to fly.

I'm sure it would be, but I can't think of any paved runway of even 4000 ft in NZ that hasn't got B1900s, Q300s, and/or warbirds who would be very upset about people auto-towing gliders there!

It's far easier to find 2000 ft of landable grass, or even 1500 ft of landable grass with unlandable extension to 5000 - 6000 ft for a wire.

My reply wasn't directed at you, Flub, but at the response that implied
that my method/comfort level is "dangerous". Looking at Sugarbush on
google maps (that's where you fly, isn't it?), I see some decent looking
agricultural fields as fall backs if you get low. I also see not too
many options if the pattern gets crowded and, at your location, I'd be
much more inclined to land if I got down to my comfort level than to try
a low save. Regarding the old guy hanging out on the ridge, local
knowledge and experience plays an important role in low flying.

Take a look at Moriarty, NM
,2799m/data=%213m1%211e3%214m2%213m1%211s0x8718cfb021a7a5 3d:0xa23675822a0f93a3>
and you'll get an idea of why I'm comfortable with a low save here.
Look at all the landing options.

Dan

On 10/12/2015 6:21 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Monday, October 12, 2015 at 11:06:31 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> So, do you call all of this thought and planning and situational
>> awareness bad practice? It seems to me that less experienced pilots
>> would be better served by seeing what is possible in unusual
>> situations rather than being hobbled by one simple rule for every
>> situation.
> The point that I was trying to make in my original post is that pilots who make their first 100 or so launches with a winch, gain experience with low level flying and develop instincts to do it relatively safely (the record suggests). People like me who trained with 3000 foot tows and 'pattern tows' do not get low level 'climb out' experience and our instincts for low level flying are rather underdeveloped. There not much deliberation and weighing of options when releasing off a 'pattern tow' at the 'Initial Point'.
>
> The fact that you feel so comfortable at low altitude suggests that you picked up the skills to do it at some point in your extensive flying career.
>
> My SOP of committing to landing at 1000-1300 AGL means that I don't have to rely on instincts that I don't have. Sure it would be better if I was more comfortable with doing lower 'saves'. Maybe that will come in time. I get a fair bit of practice scraping for lift at fairly low AGL over local ridges, but I have the option of skipping out over the valley and entering the pattern at 1000 AGL. It's all relative. I've seen one of the local old timers, circling extremely low above the saddle on the ridge... but he is like 85... and he has a wife on standby for his notoriously frequent retrieves.

--
Dan, 5J

On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 12:28:47 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> My reply wasn't directed at you, Flub, but at the response that
> implied that my method/comfort level is "dangerous".* Looking at
> Sugarbush on google maps (that's where you fly, isn't it?), I see
> some decent looking agricultural fields as fall backs if you get
> low.* I also see not too many options if the pattern gets crowded
> and, at your location, I'd be much more inclined to land if I got
> down to my comfort level than to try a low save.* Regarding the old
> guy hanging out on the ridge, local knowledge and experience plays
> an important role in low flying.
>
>
>
> Take
> a look at Moriarty, NM and you'll get an idea of why I'm
> comfortable with a low save here.* Look at all the landing options.
>
>
>
> Dan
>
>
> Your comment was in response to my comment that your practice is one, that while it may work for you, is generally unsafe and not one that others who are much less experienced than you should imitate.
Getting comfortable with being low commonly leads to pilots on cross countries quitting way to late to plan a good landing and execute in properly.
This is a major contributor to our accident record.
People reading this should understand that while it works for Dan, it is likely not a practice they should adopt.
UH

Well said Hank.

Agreed, and not trying to get into a ****ing contest. My main thrust is
the general lack of judgement that I see daily. I attribute that to a
cook book approach to instruction with only one method being taught. As
I tow pilot I see the same pattern tow instructed every time: 1,300'
AGL at the entry point and on a down wind heading. The student is
taught to make a right 360 degree turn to arrive over the entry point at
the same altitude and heading every time. This is great if you want to
open the dive brakes if you arrive a bit high or sweat bullets if you're
a bit low, but it does nothing for getting more out of your equipment
and yourself.

Please understand that I don't push low thermalling in the pattern as a
rule, only as another option, under certain circumstances, and with due
regard to what else is going on nearby. I'm all for flexibility and I
really wish instructors would at least teach or demonstrate just a few
different possibilities, like getting out of a 10:1 cone of the airport
or landing in the opposite direction of traffic or a right-hand
pattern. Students where I fly see these things only once - as
emergencies (which they may very well be) and during their final flights
before their private pilot check ride.

Now I must leave for the day to drop students off at 1,300' AGL at the
pattern entry point...

On 10/13/2015 11:14 AM, wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 12:28:47 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> My reply wasn't directed at you, Flub, but at the response that
>> implied that my method/comfort level is "dangerous". Looking at
>> Sugarbush on google maps (that's where you fly, isn't it?), I see
>> some decent looking agricultural fields as fall backs if you get
>> low. I also see not too many options if the pattern gets crowded
>> and, at your location, I'd be much more inclined to land if I got
>> down to my comfort level than to try a low save. Regarding the old
>> guy hanging out on the ridge, local knowledge and experience plays
>> an important role in low flying.
>>
>>
>>
>> Take
>> a look at Moriarty, NM and you'll get an idea of why I'm
>> comfortable with a low save here. Look at all the landing options.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>> Your comment was in response to my comment that your practice is one, that while it may work for you, is generally unsafe and not one that others who are much less experienced than you should imitate.
> Getting comfortable with being low commonly leads to pilots on cross countries quitting way to late to plan a good landing and execute in properly.
> This is a major contributor to our accident record.
> People reading this should understand that while it works for Dan, it is likely not a practice they should adopt.
> UH

--
Dan, 5J

Dan Marotta wrote 2015/10/14 at 17:14:

> Please understand that I don't push low thermalling in the pattern as a
> rule, only as another option, under certain circumstances,

and it may be fun, like this:

<http://filehorst.de/d/bputbHxH>

Sorry, download site in german, but it should work. Simple video, taken
by a teenager of our club during our summer camp 2013 at Möckmühl,
Germany. AVI-file of about 102 MB. Me in the K8, another pilot (from the
local club) in the LS4 circling around me. He had to give up - some 2
minutes before me :-)

regards
Werner

kirk.stant wrote 2015/10/12 at 22:21:

> You found us!

wasn't too hard :-)

> We have talked about trying to get a winch demo at our field to find
> out it we should look more carefully at a winch - but as we already
> have 2 nice Pawnees, there is not much interest.

Fuel still too cheap? ;-)

> (But I do love towing with the Pawnee... ;^)

Oh, I understand, however i'm not flying powered planes :-)

> As an aside, one of the disadvantages of using aero tow is that
> everybody gets used to 3000' tows and can't thermal down low! Even on
> booming days I'll tow them through the house thermal at 2000' but
> they will grimly hang on then release in sink, spot on 3000' agl.
> Arrggghh!

Yeah. Arrggghh. I like the winch; it's more of a sport and it's training
your skills. And I also like to sit on the winch and launch my fellow
pilots!

> But I will bring up your point at our next club meeting (tomorrow) -
> maybe we can get some interest going.

Ah, and now, how did it work out?

Regards
Werner

On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 3:50:43 PM UTC-5, Werner Schmidt wrote:
> kirk.stant wrote 2015/10/12 at 22:21:
>
> > You found us!
>
> wasn't too hard :-)
>
> > We have talked about trying to get a winch demo at our field to find
> > out it we should look more carefully at a winch - but as we already
> > have 2 nice Pawnees, there is not much interest.
>
> Fuel still too cheap? ;-)
>
> > (But I do love towing with the Pawnee... ;^)
>
> Oh, I understand, however i'm not flying powered planes :-)
>
> > As an aside, one of the disadvantages of using aero tow is that
> > everybody gets used to 3000' tows and can't thermal down low! Even on
> > booming days I'll tow them through the house thermal at 2000' but
> > they will grimly hang on then release in sink, spot on 3000' agl.
> > Arrggghh!
>
> Yeah. Arrggghh. I like the winch; it's more of a sport and it's training
> your skills. And I also like to sit on the winch and launch my fellow
> pilots!
>
> > But I will bring up your point at our next club meeting (tomorrow) -
> > maybe we can get some interest going.
>
> Ah, and now, how did it work out?
>
> Regards
> Werner

Danke Werner!

Winch training is in my humble opinion the key to being comfortable down low (shout-out to Dan for sticking to his un-popular views). I release from aero-tow at 1,000' if I can but mostly hang on to 1,500. If I go higher the towpilot asks me what's wrong today. Once or twice a year I have to take a relight. I cherish the feeling of connecting and working a weak thermal early in the day and making my own altitude. If it doesn't work for others, I don't care. Close to the field my personal limit is 500'. Instructors use me as the 'bad example'. Of course I modify in high winds and on days with broken-up thermals. Wouldn't want to miss my training on the winch back in Oerlinghausen and at the Luftsportverein Hameln.

Herb

IMHO every pilot should know 10 different ways to land safely, instead of only one way, to perfection. Accident statistics back up this idea. Many landing accidents happen because a pilot is trying to fly "the same" pattern when something totally different is called for.

And glider pilots should be taught to turn their aircraft. If you've never turned your plane off of the runway, you are not going to turn in an emergency when you need to. Over the years I've seen several gliders taxi straight into other aircraft, when turning into a smooth field next to the runway was a completely viable option.

Boggs

On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 4:42:04 PM UTC-4, Werner Schmidt wrote:

> <http://filehorst.de/d/bputbHxH>

That is a risky click/link. Tried to install malware on my computer.

son_of_flubber wrote 2015/15/10 at 00:20:

> On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 4:42:04 PM UTC-4, Werner Schmidt wrote:
>
>> <http://filehorst.de/d/bputbHxH>
>
> That is a risky click/link. Tried to install malware on my computer.

oh? abload.de (for pictures only) and filehorst.de (new for files) are
not known as a "bad" site, so I chosed it to upload my video there.

Could you tell more details? The only thing I see is that it tries to
run scripts from adcash.com and adshot.de - oh. Adcash.com seems to be
the villain. Didn't see the problem, 'cause I've installed the addon
"NoScript" in firefox on my PC.

Sorry for that. I'll search for another filehoster and send a new link.
May take a while.

Thank you very much for the hint / warning!

Regards
Werner

On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 7:46:54 PM UTC-4, Werner Schmidt wrote:
> son_of_flubber wrote 2015/15/10 at 00:20:
>
> > On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 4:42:04 PM UTC-4, Werner Schmidt wrote:
> >
> >> <http://filehorst.de/d/bputbHxH>
> >
> > That is a risky click/link. Tried to install malware on my computer.
>
> oh? abload.de (for pictures only) and filehorst.de (new for files) are
> not known as a "bad" site, so I chosed it to upload my video there.
>
> Could you tell more details? The only thing I see is that it tries to
> run scripts from adcash.com and adshot.de - oh. Adcash.com seems to be
> the villain. Didn't see the problem, 'cause I've installed the addon
> "NoScript" in firefox on my PC.
>
> Sorry for that. I'll search for another filehoster and send a new link.
> May take a while.
>
> Thank you very much for the hint / warning!
>
> Regards
> Werner

I'm running Chrome browser on Chrome OS (Chromebook) with Avast antivirus. NOT running Adblock, it's not usually a problem on the sites I visit. This setup errs on the side of caution for malware, so other folks might not see a problem.

On the link you posted, I got a large pop-up for a 'dating website', when I clicked on the X to make the popup go away, the alarm went off.

Gee, thanks Herb! My comfort level is 700' so you must be more
dangerous than I am... 8-)


On 10/14/2015 3:42 PM, wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 3:50:43 PM UTC-5, Werner Schmidt wrote:
>> kirk.stant wrote 2015/10/12 at 22:21:
>>
>>> You found us!
>> wasn't too hard :-)
>>
>>> We have talked about trying to get a winch demo at our field to find
>>> out it we should look more carefully at a winch - but as we already
>>> have 2 nice Pawnees, there is not much interest.
>> Fuel still too cheap? ;-)
>>
>>> (But I do love towing with the Pawnee... ;^)
>> Oh, I understand, however i'm not flying powered planes :-)
>>
>>> As an aside, one of the disadvantages of using aero tow is that
>>> everybody gets used to 3000' tows and can't thermal down low! Even on
>>> booming days I'll tow them through the house thermal at 2000' but
>>> they will grimly hang on then release in sink, spot on 3000' agl.
>>> Arrggghh!
>> Yeah. Arrggghh. I like the winch; it's more of a sport and it's training
>> your skills. And I also like to sit on the winch and launch my fellow
>> pilots!
>>
>>> But I will bring up your point at our next club meeting (tomorrow) -
>>> maybe we can get some interest going.
>> Ah, and now, how did it work out?
>>
>> Regards
>> Werner
> Danke Werner!
>
> Winch training is in my humble opinion the key to being comfortable down low (shout-out to Dan for sticking to his un-popular views). I release from aero-tow at 1,000' if I can but mostly hang on to 1,500. If I go higher the towpilot asks me what's wrong today. Once or twice a year I have to take a relight. I cherish the feeling of connecting and working a weak thermal early in the day and making my own altitude. If it doesn't work for others, I don't care. Close to the field my personal limit is 500'. Instructors use me as the 'bad example'. Of course I modify in high winds and on days with broken-up thermals. Wouldn't want to miss my training on the winch back in Oerlinghausen and at the Luftsportverein Hameln.
>
> Herb

--
Dan, 5J

Hi Werner. Dropbox works well as does google drive. I don't know if
they're US only or international. Youtube is also easy.

On 10/14/2015 5:46 PM, Werner Schmidt wrote:
> son_of_flubber wrote 2015/15/10 at 00:20:
>
>> On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 4:42:04 PM UTC-4, Werner Schmidt
>> wrote:
>>
>>> <http://filehorst.de/d/bputbHxH>
>>
>> That is a risky click/link. Tried to install malware on my computer.
>
> oh? abload.de (for pictures only) and filehorst.de (new for files) are
> not known as a "bad" site, so I chosed it to upload my video there.
>
> Could you tell more details? The only thing I see is that it tries to
> run scripts from adcash.com and adshot.de - oh. Adcash.com seems to be
> the villain. Didn't see the problem, 'cause I've installed the addon
> "NoScript" in firefox on my PC.
>
> Sorry for that. I'll search for another filehoster and send a new
> link. May take a while.
>
> Thank you very much for the hint / warning!
>
> Regards
> Werner
>

--
Dan, 5J

On Wed, 14 Oct 2015 17:12:23 -0700, son_of_flubber wrote:

> On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 7:46:54 PM UTC-4, Werner Schmidt
> wrote:
>> son_of_flubber wrote 2015/15/10 at 00:20:
>>
>> > On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 4:42:04 PM UTC-4, Werner Schmidt
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> <http://filehorst.de/d/bputbHxH>
>> >
>> > That is a risky click/link. Tried to install malware on my computer.
>>
>> oh? abload.de (for pictures only) and filehorst.de (new for files) are
>> not known as a "bad" site, so I chosed it to upload my video there.
>>
>> Could you tell more details? The only thing I see is that it tries to
>> run scripts from adcash.com and adshot.de - oh. Adcash.com seems to be
>> the villain. Didn't see the problem, 'cause I've installed the addon
>> "NoScript" in firefox on my PC.
>>
>> Sorry for that. I'll search for another filehoster and send a new link.
>> May take a while.
>>
>> Thank you very much for the hint / warning!
>>
>> Regards
>> Werner
>
> I'm running Chrome browser on Chrome OS (Chromebook) with Avast
> antivirus. NOT running Adblock, it's not usually a problem on the sites
> I visit. This setup errs on the side of caution for malware, so other
> folks might not see a problem.
>
> On the link you posted, I got a large pop-up for a 'dating website',
> when I clicked on the X to make the popup go away, the alarm went off.

I run Adblock Edge and Ghostery, primarily because I HATE ads that jiggle
and flash. Didn't see anything amiss (or any ads) on that site.

Flub might want to revisit his no ad-blocker policy because crims are now
using advertising sites as their malware delivery service.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

"Winch launch will never drop the rope anywhere except right in front of the winch unless the rope breaks"

Really? Well I guess I had better get cracking on getting restitution from BC Hydro about those three times a winch cable allegedly dropped across the HV power lines since I now have it on good authority that those incidents never happened.

On Friday, October 16, 2015 at 8:16:07 AM UTC+3, wrote:
> "Winch launch will never drop the rope anywhere except right in front of the winch unless the rope breaks"
>
> Really? Well I guess I had better get cracking on getting restitution from BC Hydro about those three times a winch cable allegedly dropped across the HV power lines since I now have it on good authority that those incidents never happened.

I guess it depends on a certain level of skill from the operator :-)

At my local winch site, it's not uncommon in a crosswind with a student pilot to see the glider and cable crossing above a row of trees and even the adjacent river. But the parachute still ends up hitting the ground on the field and 50 meters from the winch. Unless the rope breaks. Then you can have fun.

son_of_flubber wrote 2015/10/15 at 02:12:

> On the link you posted, I got a large pop-up for a 'dating website',
> when I clicked on the X to make the popup go away, the alarm went
> off.

so it's as I supposed: the adhoster is the villain, not the filehoster
himself. However, not a fun. No filehoster should give such an adhoster
room for his bloody work. I'll change my filehoster and send a new link.

Regards
Werner

Dan Marotta wrote 2015/10/15 at 02:25:

> Hi Werner. Dropbox works well as does google drive. I don't know if
> they're US only or international.

the latter. Now I registered there, and this link should work:

<https://www.dropbox.com/s/eep9qexp32htpdi/MVI_4992.AVI?dl=0>

Regards
Werner

wrote on 2015/10/2015 at 23:42:

> I release from aero-tow at 1,000' if I can but mostly hang on to
> 1,500.

that's about what our winch can give, as I said, depending on wind,
glider type, skill of pilot, and winch driver.

> If I go higher the towpilot asks me what's wrong today.
[...]
> Instructors use me as the 'bad example'.

:-)

> Of course I modify in high winds and on days with broken-up thermals.

There are bold pilots and there are old pilots ...

Regards
Werner

....And old pilots who used to be bold but toned it down a bit.

On 10/17/2015 1:39 PM, Werner Schmidt wrote:
> wrote on 2015/10/2015 at 23:42:
>
>> I release from aero-tow at 1,000' if I can but mostly hang on to
>> 1,500.
>
> that's about what our winch can give, as I said, depending on wind,
> glider type, skill of pilot, and winch driver.
>
>> If I go higher the towpilot asks me what's wrong today.
> [...]
>> Instructors use me as the 'bad example'.
>
> :-)
>
>> Of course I modify in high winds and on days with broken-up thermals.
>
> There are bold pilots and there are old pilots ...
>
> Regards
> Werner

--
Dan, 5J

Dan Marotta wrote on 2015/10/18 at 00:37:

> ...And old pilots who used to be bold but toned it down a bit.

well said, Dan. But perhaps should be added, than: "... and happily
survived when bold" :-)

Regards
Werner

:-D

On 10/17/2015 10:26 PM, Werner Schmidt wrote:
> Dan Marotta wrote on 2015/10/18 at 00:37:
>
>> ...And old pilots who used to be bold but toned it down a bit.
>
> well said, Dan. But perhaps should be added, than: "... and happily
> survived when bold" :-)
>
> Regards
> Werner

--
Dan, 5J

On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 3:50:43 PM UTC-5, Werner Schmidt wrote:

> Ah, and now, how did it work out?
>
> Regards
> Werner


So possible long term interest. 4 of us are planning on a winch training session next May; that might start something.

And yes, avgas is pretty cheap in the US - our club charges $24 for a 3000ft tow - so we are spoiled.

To fully use a winch, we would have to make some infrastructure changes - theoretically we could have up to 4000ft available launching to the North, perhaps 2700ft to the South. That, plus the economics of a modern winch, might be what it takes to get our club into winching.

So, a work in progress....

Cheers,

Kirk

On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 4:55:28 PM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
> IMHO every pilot should know 10 different ways to land safely, instead of only one way, to perfection. Accident statistics back up this idea. Many landing accidents happen because a pilot is trying to fly "the same" pattern when something totally different is called for.
>
> And glider pilots should be taught to turn their aircraft. If you've never turned your plane off of the runway, you are not going to turn in an emergency when you need to. Over the years I've seen several gliders taxi straight into other aircraft, when turning into a smooth field next to the runway was a completely viable option.
>
> Boggs

Interesting, I just had this discussion with one of the old-time CFIGs in our club (flies an ASW-19 but not XC), and he is strongly opposed to experienced pilots maneuvering on the field after landing; says it sets a bad example for the students (who are taught to roll out straight). Needless to say, I strongly disagreed with him, pointing out that the ability to land out of any pattern, and roll out exactly where you want/need to go, is an important skill that needs to be taught, even if the PTS doesn't require it!

Then again, he isn't much impressed by my low approaches and circling patterns to a landing, either...

Kirk
66

On 10/19/2015 8:45 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 4:55:28 PM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
>> IMHO every pilot should know 10 different ways to land safely, instead of
>> only one way, to perfection. Accident statistics back up this idea. Many
>> landing accidents happen because a pilot is trying to fly "the same"
>> pattern when something totally different is called for.
>>
>> And glider pilots should be taught to turn their aircraft. If you've
>> never turned your plane off of the runway, you are not going to turn in
>> an emergency when you need to. Over the years I've seen several gliders
>> taxi straight into other aircraft, when turning into a smooth field next
>> to the runway was a completely viable option.
>>
>> Boggs
>
> Interesting, I just had this discussion with one of the old-time CFIGs in
> our club (flies an ASW-19 but not XC), and he is strongly opposed to
> experienced pilots maneuvering on the field after landing; says it sets a
> bad example for the students (who are taught to roll out straight).
> Needless to say, I strongly disagreed with him, pointing out that the
> ability to land out of any pattern, and roll out exactly where you
> want/need to go, is an important skill that needs to be taught, even if the
> PTS doesn't require it!
>
> Then again, he isn't much impressed by my low approaches and circling
> patterns to a landing, either...
>
> Kirk 66
>

Doing my bit to setting a record for thread drift... :)

I ran into this particular "disconnect" when still obtaining my license; back
then I might've even been sufficiently inexperienced in the ways of human
nature to've bet Real Money it was a passing thing...the "disconnect" I mean.
Yeah, I was that naive!

The "disconnect" to which I refer is that between proponents of training and
flying *ONLY* to practical test standards (PTS) and those who understand the
PTS are but an arbitrary standard that also open a door to a lifetime of
learning about (in this case) soaring. Yeah, for some of the particularly
unfortunate, unlucky or downright deserving, the lifetime may prove pretty
short, but the reality is - given "a normal lifetime" - no one ever continues
flying to only PTS...nor - IMNSHO - should they, particularly if XC (advertent
*or* inadvertent) is in their future.

The reality is every soaring sword is double-edged. Learning how to turn a
rolling-out glider is a useful skill; I've also seen it lead to "convenience
collisions" when used inadvisedly. That's just the way it is. And (as I know)
the Boggs and Kirks of the world understand, not all gliders turn the same way
when rolling out. Duh? Not according to some of those pilots who've had
convenience collisions, I'll bet!

As to the disconnect and its ongoing "weaponizing" in gliderport
conversations-n-criticism, if I take the "Thou shall NOT do anything at your
home gliderport that does not meet PTS," to its logical conclusion, it begs
the question where shall/should Joe Gliderpilot begin to expand his skill set?

This situation seems to me nothing more than yet another superb teaching
opportunity, and to not use it as such lies somewhere between missing an
opportunity, and downright irresponsible.

And before CFIGs jump down my throat, remember the double-edged sword bit. Not
every display of "beyond PTS skills" at the home gliderport is a paragon of
*individual* safety, not to mention group safety...so why not teach it that way?

Bob W.

On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 5:45:23 PM UTC+3, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 4:55:28 PM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
> > IMHO every pilot should know 10 different ways to land safely, instead of only one way, to perfection. Accident statistics back up this idea. Many landing accidents happen because a pilot is trying to fly "the same" pattern when something totally different is called for.
> >
> > And glider pilots should be taught to turn their aircraft. If you've never turned your plane off of the runway, you are not going to turn in an emergency when you need to. Over the years I've seen several gliders taxi straight into other aircraft, when turning into a smooth field next to the runway was a completely viable option.
> >
> > Boggs
>
> Interesting, I just had this discussion with one of the old-time CFIGs in our club (flies an ASW-19 but not XC), and he is strongly opposed to experienced pilots maneuvering on the field after landing; says it sets a bad example for the students (who are taught to roll out straight). Needless to say, I strongly disagreed with him, pointing out that the ability to land out of any pattern, and roll out exactly where you want/need to go, is an important skill that needs to be taught, even if the PTS doesn't require it!
>
> Then again, he isn't much impressed by my low approaches and circling patterns to a landing, either...

The cure to that is to officially add teaching how to properly manoeuvre during the landing roll as an item to the post-solo syllabus, just like (simulated) competition finishes.

There are sites our club flies from where you will *not* get permission to fly solo unless you know how to clear the rather narrow strip for the next glider.

On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 11:48:35 AM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 5:45:23 PM UTC+3, kirk.stant wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 4:55:28 PM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
> > > IMHO every pilot should know 10 different ways to land safely, instead of only one way, to perfection. Accident statistics back up this idea. Many landing accidents happen because a pilot is trying to fly "the same" pattern when something totally different is called for.
> > >
> > > And glider pilots should be taught to turn their aircraft. If you've never turned your plane off of the runway, you are not going to turn in an emergency when you need to. Over the years I've seen several gliders taxi straight into other aircraft, when turning into a smooth field next to the runway was a completely viable option.
> > >
> > > Boggs
> >
> > Interesting, I just had this discussion with one of the old-time CFIGs in our club (flies an ASW-19 but not XC), and he is strongly opposed to experienced pilots maneuvering on the field after landing; says it sets a bad example for the students (who are taught to roll out straight). Needless to say, I strongly disagreed with him, pointing out that the ability to land out of any pattern, and roll out exactly where you want/need to go, is an important skill that needs to be taught, even if the PTS doesn't require it!
> >
> > Then again, he isn't much impressed by my low approaches and circling patterns to a landing, either...
>
> The cure to that is to officially add teaching how to properly manoeuvre during the landing roll as an item to the post-solo syllabus, just like (simulated) competition finishes.
>
> There are sites our club flies from where you will *not* get permission to fly solo unless you know how to clear the rather narrow strip for the next glider.

Ah yes, site checks, the standard at many UK sites and other places. Perhaps the most interesting for me was at the old Lleweni Parc. 75kts on final to land up hill, stopping at the launch point. Alas, on visiting their web site, now gliders and pilots must now keep off the grass, so there is a tarmac runway and landing gliders must roll to the end to clear the runway.

Frank Whiteley

That's way to high... We use 800-1000, and yes the occasional instructor induced rope break at 600.
Of course there is always the instructor "my airplane" until about 500ft just outside the pattern entry, or the instructor distraction until the student cries uncle and wants to get into the pattern. Ahhh. Instructor, we are a little low out here, shouldn't we head in? Great observation, let's get this on the ground. Then the appropriate debrief on the ground,
BillT

kirk.stant wrote on 2015/10/19 at 16:39:

> To fully use a winch, we would have to make some infrastructure
> changes - theoretically we could have up to 4000ft available
> launching to the North, perhaps 2700ft to the South. That, plus the
> economics of a modern winch, might be what it takes to get our club
> into winching.
>
> So, a work in progress....

good luck!

Regards
Werner

On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 18:45:02 -0700, Frank Whiteley wrote:

> Ah yes, site checks, the standard at many UK sites and other places.
> Perhaps the most interesting for me was at the old Lleweni Parc. 75kts
> on final to land up hill, stopping at the launch point. Alas, on
> visiting their web site, now gliders and pilots must now keep off the
> grass, so there is a tarmac runway and landing gliders must roll to the
> end to clear the runway.
>
The most interesting site I've flown from is Eden Soaring, which is winch
launch only, and the only site I've flown so far where a site
familiarisation walk round the field is mandatory on your first visit.
The photos here show the field's special features:

http://edensoaring.co.uk/page/?walkaroundthefield

Would I fly there again? In a flash!


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 4:51:14 AM UTC+3, Bill T wrote:
> That's way to high... We use 800-1000, and yes the occasional instructor induced rope break at 600.
> Of course there is always the instructor "my airplane" until about 500ft just outside the pattern entry, or the instructor distraction until the student cries uncle and wants to get into the pattern. Ahhh. Instructor, we are a little low out here, shouldn't we head in? Great observation, let's get this on the ground. Then the appropriate debrief on the ground,

It's the most fun to distract them attempting to work a weak thermal 2 or 3 km downwind from the field, and on the opposite side to the normal landing circuit. Hopefully the student notices we are low (or it is pointed out) while there is still plenty of height to fly upwind to a good base leg (but from the opposite side to usual). But somewhere between foolhardy and impossible to fly diagonally overhead the field to the normal circuit entry point.

I couldn't help but add a comment, I am from the Willamette Valley Soaring Club in Oregon. Once a year we do a Safari to the Alvord Desert which is a dry lake 17 miles long and 7 miles wide, that's right there is no end to the runway so to speak.

We have been doing a weeks worth of auto tows since the 1950's and I can say while I have only been a part of this Safari since 2000 I am hooked on auto towing at this location.

All of the variables that have been mentioned exist such as air density, horse power of the car, car weight, length of wire, etc.

Up until this last year we have always used a length of 12 gauge agricultural wire (about $125.00 for 4,000'), we take a new wire every few years to replace the old one. You can tell when it is time to replace the old because the number of wire breaks. Wire breaks are a real pain as it takes a half hour to get the two ends nicro pressed back together and walk the wire to check for kinks. We have used a number of old cars, the 1960's Buick's were the best as we just left them at a farmers ranch and came out, fueled them up, reinstalled the battery and fired them off.
The last care we used as a 92 Cadillac which only lasted about 5 years before the transmission went.
This year we took both a new wire and a take up reel I built. the reel had 4,000' of spectra and was used much as the wire was in that it was run out full length before the tow was started so the only variables in tow were the car speed and the pilots control. ( I had a few very uneasy flights years ago on a pay out winch where the car speed, winch pay out and pilot were all variable).

On the wire we use a tow release on the car with a release cable run to the spotter. On the spectra cable we have a weak link at the reel and the spotter is in the back of the pickup ready to sever the weak link if required.
With our launch system we get a launch of every 10-15 minutes, the launch itself takes 3 minutes and the release altitude is 2,000-2,500' AGL.

Steve R.

Winching seems fine, but auto towing seems less complex to me and far less expensive. Of course clubs are always working to find a way to stamp out as many cycles as possible (quantity). For smaller groups or just a few (or when looking for absolute minimum cost), auto towing seems more elegant (quality)! Rigging up that loud spinning monster seems like overkill in many cases.

I'm going to plan an auto-towing event in Michigan next summer for the fun of it, maybe up in Frankfort so we can go ridge soaring on the dunes.

Book: https://books.google.com/books?id=K42QfQi6roUC&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=frankfort+ridge+soaring&source=bl&ots=2u0EH4h0E3&sig=lP2yBMT4eep1oW0fHMjVwHsSyuQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAWoVChMIhZ_D08vRyAIVx4wNCh0VZwTr#v=on epage&q=frankfort%20ridge%20soaring&f=false

More later...

Sean
7T

When is this annual event and do you accept visiting pilots who bring
their own ships?

On 10/20/2015 11:27 AM, Steve Rander wrote:
> I couldn't help but add a comment, I am from the Willamette Valley Soaring Club in Oregon. Once a year we do a Safari to the Alvord Desert which is a dry lake 17 miles long and 7 miles wide, that's right there is no end to the runway so to speak.
>
> We have been doing a weeks worth of auto tows since the 1950's and I can say while I have only been a part of this Safari since 2000 I am hooked on auto towing at this location.
>
> All of the variables that have been mentioned exist such as air density, horse power of the car, car weight, length of wire, etc.
>
> Up until this last year we have always used a length of 12 gauge agricultural wire (about $125.00 for 4,000'), we take a new wire every few years to replace the old one. You can tell when it is time to replace the old because the number of wire breaks. Wire breaks are a real pain as it takes a half hour to get the two ends nicro pressed back together and walk the wire to check for kinks. We have used a number of old cars, the 1960's Buick's were the best as we just left them at a farmers ranch and came out, fueled them up, reinstalled the battery and fired them off.
> The last care we used as a 92 Cadillac which only lasted about 5 years before the transmission went.
> This year we took both a new wire and a take up reel I built. the reel had 4,000' of spectra and was used much as the wire was in that it was run out full length before the tow was started so the only variables in tow were the car speed and the pilots control. ( I had a few very uneasy flights years ago on a pay out winch where the car speed, winch pay out and pilot were all variable).
>
> On the wire we use a tow release on the car with a release cable run to the spotter. On the spectra cable we have a weak link at the reel and the spotter is in the back of the pickup ready to sever the weak link if required.
> With our launch system we get a launch of every 10-15 minutes, the launch itself takes 3 minutes and the release altitude is 2,000-2,500' AGL.
>
> Steve R.

--
Dan, 5J

The Willamette Valley Alvord Safari is normally the 2nd or 3rd week in July.. Steve Rander is the organizer/contact, and we get a special permit (limit on the number on individuals) from the BLM to camp on the playa. Rander has a complete menu for the week and everyone shares the cost. I'm sure Steve will chip in here, but we have had visiting pilots in the past, but the count may be filled by club members before you get the chance.

Mike

Thanks for the information. It would be a really long trek from
Albuquerque, but it would be worth it at least once. Same BLM hoops to
jump through for the Las Vegas ground launch weekend.

On 10/20/2015 8:08 PM, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> The Willamette Valley Alvord Safari is normally the 2nd or 3rd week in July. Steve Rander is the organizer/contact, and we get a special permit (limit on the number on individuals) from the BLM to camp on the playa. Rander has a complete menu for the week and everyone shares the cost. I'm sure Steve will chip in here, but we have had visiting pilots in the past, but the count may be filled by club members before you get the chance.
>
> Mike

--
Dan, 5J

On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 12:39:40 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Winching seems fine, but auto towing seems less complex to me and far less expensive. Of course clubs are always working to find a way to stamp out as many cycles as possible (quantity). For smaller groups or just a few (or when looking for absolute minimum cost), auto towing seems more elegant (quality)! Rigging up that loud spinning monster seems like overkill in many cases.
>
> I'm going to plan an auto-towing event in Michigan next summer for the fun of it, maybe up in Frankfort so we can go ridge soaring on the dunes.
>
> Book: https://books.google.com/books?id=K42QfQi6roUC&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=frankfort+ridge+soaring&source=bl&ots=2u0EH4h0E3&sig=lP2yBMT4eep1oW0fHMjVwHsSyuQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAWoVChMIhZ_D08vRyAIVx4wNCh0VZwTr#v=on epage&q=frankfort%20ridge%20soaring&f=false
>
> More later...
>
> Sean
> 7T

Have you ever been on a modern 2-drum winch, Sean? With a trained crew and a good winch driver you can launch 2 gliders every 10 min without the hassle of dealing with 3-4000' of cable. Have you considered what auto-launch is like with a good cross-wind? No real problem with a winch because the cable ends up on the reel - all of it. Ignorance is sometimes bliss, you know.
Herb J7

On Wednesday, October 21, 2015 at 8:08:59 AM UTC-6, wrote:

> >
> > Sean
> > 7T
>
> Have you ever been on a modern 2-drum winch, Sean? With a trained crew and a good winch driver you can launch 2 gliders every 10 min without the hassle of dealing with 3-4000' of cable. Have you considered what auto-launch is like with a good cross-wind? No real problem with a winch because the cable ends up on the reel - all of it. Ignorance is sometimes bliss, you know.
> Herb J7

Exactly. Auto tow will indeed be "dropping the rope all over the place" and, when all the costs are added up, it won't be any cheaper than a winch.

One must concede that auto tow LOOKS simpler and cheaper to novices but after a few weekends actually doing it the realization sets in that a winch is a much better idea. That's why there's a 1000:1 ratio between winch and auto tow operations globally. Pretty much everybody who tries auto tow winds up with a winch.

Back in the early 1960's a bunch of us desert rat glider pilots operating from El Mirage dry lake pushed the auto tow idea to its limit and in the process learned all the hard lessons. Operating a modern winch is a picnic by comparison.

I got my silver altitude gain off of an auto tow. As a CFIG I have instructed at two winch clinics using our winch on a public airport. A well set up, high torque winch, with Spectra, the correct tackle, and a winch driver that knows what he is doing is pretty hard to beat. In my opinion a winch launch is the best option between the two given a choice.

I would try several auto tows with different local gliders, and pilots before I attempted to set up an auto tow weekend event. There are a whole lot of things that could go wrong. You don't want a bunch of whiners from out of town bitching about, while you discover what they are. Oh, volunteer your own vehicle for the towing while you are at it, that tends to alter ones opinion of the event.

To answer you questions in order
-wear and tear on the tow vehicle is a significant cost that's hard to account for.
-It's not simple all the time, say the field is a little wet, the glider lightens the back end, and the tires spin. It can get exciting.
-You have to have the right site, launch crew, and vehicle to make auto towing practical.
-it's not more fun than winching on a good winch. Think Ski boat with not enough engine.

SF

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 5:57:33 AM UTC+1, Sean Fidler wrote:
>
> Winches are extremely expensive to purchase, to maintain, and insure and require skilled operators.
>

IME winching can be taught over the course of a handful of sessions -- yes, skill levels vary, but it hardly requires a "skilled operator". At most clubs in the UK, the majority of solo pilots can drive the winch effectively and safely.

Auto towing may look simpler because people already know how to drive a car. The simplicity is deceptive though -- it requires a skilled, safety-conscious driver.

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 7:26:57 PM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Bill....at best, not accurate.

Absolutely dead accurate.

Sean Fidler wrote:

> Winches are extremely expensive to purchase, to maintain, and insure and require skilled operators.

Wildly inaccurate and misleading.

Winch operators can be trained in a day.
Brand new winches can be expensive but the operating costs are extremely low.
Maintenance is penny's per launch.
Winch insurance may already be included in the insurance you have.

Brand new winches "can" be expensive? Can be? Wow! There is a plug.

I hear they are well over 100k. Or more! I have heard $250k plus for an advanced european system. "Can" be expensive? I also hear insurance is not cheap either. You say its included? Sure, for the glider. What about the club or operator? When is the last US purchase of a new winch system? What was the price? How many have been purchased in the last 10 years? What are clubs paying to maintain new and old winch systems? What are clubs paying to convert them from wire to spectra? I know of one club that is letting their winch rust rather than pay to upgrade.

I have nothing against winches. I think they are fine. But a car and a rope (auto-towing) is the cheapest, easiest to train method of launching a glider, period. Winches are more expensive and far more complex. These are simple facts.

I don't care, but this thread has been entirely hijacked by a bunch of winch people. For what purpose? Why the hyping of winches? Are you kids afraid of being displaced by auto towing? Why? Are you getting a "spiff" from the winch manufacturer perhaps?

My argument is that if I was a 20 year old and had the right situation (airport size, etc), I would rather have my buddy tow me up with his jeep for free than pay $40 for a tow. Now, why not expand this independence to everyone whenever possible. Another benefit of auto-towing is not having to wait in line or deal with a political soaring club environment. Perhaps interesting to some.

Anyway, as usual, I couldn't care less about this thread anymore. The forest is once again lost for the trees.

SkyDrive 6-D

New winch assembled, tested & ready to launch.
8.2L GM V8 engine / tranmission, fuelled by LPG
585L fuel capacity in 3 tanks
Fully enclosed cab with Skylaunch control system.
Built as skid unit to fit on lorry or trailer chassis.

Engine Options - 4D/6D:
Mesh screns: S-52 Front and roof weld mesh safety screens
Air conditioning: S-53 Cabin air conditioning system
Seat runners: S-54 Cab seat runners to adjust seat forward /back
Powered access lift: S-55 Powered access lift to cabin for disabled winch operators - POA
Cabin heater: S-56 Cab heater, propane powered for use with engine on or off (only available with option S-50
Signal lamp: S-62 Remote controlled signal lamp system
Stereo radio: S-63 Stereo Radio/CD player More......
Transceiver: S-64 Transceiver or receiver, aerial fitted in cab, specs to suit client (POA)
Power socket: S-65 12 volt ?cigarette lighter? type power socket fitted More......
Engine tachometer: S-66 Engine tachometer (petrol/propane options only)
Trailer - 6 drum (POA): S-77 6D Winch fitted on trailer chassis with 4 wheels (2 steering) and parking brake (POA)
Trailer light system - Skydrive (POA): S-71 Light system includes rear side markers, no plate lamp, fog light, indicators, side lights, reflectors, fully wired with 7 pin plug (POA)
Spare wheel - Skydrive (POA): S-72 Spare wheel and tyre (POA)
Cable Equipment Package 6D: S-95 Cable Equipment Package More...... - POA
Price Exl Vat/carriage: £146,678.00
US Dollars: $224,578.69 US Dollar
PLUS VAT, TAX, SHIPPING, ETC
So, 250k plus USD once all said and done...
Awesome, cool, but VERY EXPENSIVE and im sure not cheap to insure and to maintain...

just for the record...

http://www.skylaunchuk.com

At 17:33 27 October 2015, Sean Fidler wrote:
>SkyDrive 6-D
>
>New winch assembled, tested & ready to launch.
>8.2L GM V8 engine / tranmission, fuelled by LPG
>585L fuel capacity in 3 tanks
>Fully enclosed cab with Skylaunch control system.
>Built as skid unit to fit on lorry or trailer chassis.
>
>Engine Options - 4D/6D:=09
>Mesh screns: S-52 Front and roof weld mesh safety screens
>Air conditioning: S-53 Cabin air conditioning system
>Seat runners: S-54 Cab seat runners to adjust seat forward
/back
>Powered access lift: S-55 Powered access lift to cabin for
disabled winch
>o=
>perators - POA
>Cabin heater: S-56 Cab heater, propane powered for use with
engine on or
>of=
>f (only available with option S-50
>Signal lamp: S-62 Remote controlled signal lamp system
>Stereo radio: S-63 Stereo Radio/CD player More......
>Transceiver: S-64 Transceiver or receiver, aerial fitted in cab,
specs to
>s=
>uit client (POA)
>Power socket: S-65 12 volt ?cigarette lighter? type power socket
fitted

>Mor=
>e......
>Engine tachometer: S-66 Engine tachometer (petrol/propane
options only)
>Trailer - 6 drum (POA): S-77 6D Winch fitted on trailer chassis
with 4
>whee=
>ls (2 steering) and parking brake (POA)
>Trailer light system - Skydrive (POA): S-71 Light system includes
rear
>side=
> markers, no plate lamp, fog light, indicators, side lights,
reflectors,
>fu=
>lly wired with 7 pin plug (POA)
>Spare wheel - Skydrive (POA): S-72 Spare wheel and tyre (POA)
>Cable Equipment Package 6D: S-95 Cable Equipment Package
More...... - POA
>Price Exl Vat/carriage: =A3146,678.00
>US Dollars: $224,578.69 US Dollar
>PLUS VAT, TAX, SHIPPING, ETC
>So, 250k plus USD once all said and done...
>Awesome, cool, but VERY EXPENSIVE and im sure not cheap to
insure and to
>ma=
>intain...
>
>just for the record...
>
>http://www.skylaunchuk.com
>
>

...or settle for their basic two drum winch for $85000!

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 12:28:41 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:

> Anyway, as usual, I couldn't care less about this thread anymore. The forest is once again lost for the trees.

And, as usual, you are so off base as to be ridiculous.

On the one hand, you rant about how great the Europeans are with their youth programs, then go off on a strange tangent about auto-towing, which is extremely rare in Europe?

And in the US - do you have access to a nice long runway? And a beater car? Most clubs don't - which is why Auto Tow is not popular, dude!

You want more participation - do the math on the economics of a reasonable winch and you will see that it comes out far ahead of aero tow or car launch.

Pfft, enough.

Kirk
66

Brand new 6-drum winches are expensive but so are six brand new air conditioned towplanes with entertainment systems and disabled access.

Almost anyone can be trained to drive a winch. I've launched loads of gliders using a homebuilt single drum winch. Also run the start line, driven the buggy and taken quite a few launches including ones that started XC flights.
In a crosswind, it's the glider pilot's responsibility to stay upwind of the runway so the parachute falls on the runway.
A winch operation can be run efficiently with two people. The person who hooks up the glider and runs the wing can drive the retrieve vehicle.
Auto tows are fun too, but they are nowhere near the fun of a winch launch.

Had held on this for fear of the off-season rants on this particular glider.
On Saturday I witnessed another reason that ground launches are not common in the USA: The most common US trainer is pretty poor at ground launches.

Jim

On 10/27/2015 11:28 AM, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Brand new winches "can" be expensive? Can be? Wow! There is a plug.
> I hear they are well over 100k.

Ummm...last January's "Soaring" magazine; 3 different brand-new spectra
winches from Roman's Design: $97,500, $65,500, $27,500; also lists
build-it-yourself kits. Having seen his offerings at 2 different SSA
Conventions, they appear to me both solidly designed and solid.
- - - - - -

> Or more! I have heard $250k plus for an
> advanced european system... I also hear insurance is
> not cheap either.

I believe everything I hear, too. Critical independent thought can be SO much
effort...
- - - - - -

> When is the last US purchase of a new winch system?

Ask the club at Jacumba.
- - - - - -

> What was the price? How many have been purchased in the last 10 years?
> What are clubs paying to maintain new and old winch systems? What are
> clubs paying to convert them from wire to spectra? I know of one club that
> is letting their winch rust rather than pay to upgrade.
>
> I have nothing against winches. I think they are fine. But a car and a
> rope (auto-towing) is the cheapest, easiest to train method of launching a
> glider, period. Winches are more expensive and far more complex. These
> are simple facts.

"Don't confuse me with the facts once my mind is made up," comes to mind...
- - - - - -

> I don't care, but this thread has been entirely hijacked by a bunch of
> winch people. For what purpose? Why the hyping of winches? Are you kids
> afraid of being displaced by auto towing? Why? Are you getting a "spiff"
> from the winch manufacturer perhaps?

Yeah, it's gotta be that last bit! There's so much profit in the manufacture
and huckstering of winches that the manufacturers can afford to hijack RAS
threads. BWA-A-A-A HA HA HA-A-A--A!!!
- - - - - -

> My argument is that if I was a 20 year old and had the right situation
> (airport size, etc), I would rather have my buddy tow me up with his jeep
> for free than pay $40 for a tow.

Heh. Two rather big "If's" huh? As for "his jeep", one of those cosmoline
jobbies of yore? Advise your buddy: 1) not to say "Watch this!" 2) to be
strapped securely in, and 3) ideally to have a full roll cage. Don't bother to
ask if he's on his parent's car insurance policy and if auto-towing is
covered, cuz it'll just harsh your buzz. Just sayin...
- - - - - -

> Now, why not expand this independence to
> everyone whenever possible. Another benefit of auto-towing is not having
> to wait in line or deal with a political soaring club environment. Perhaps
> interesting to some.

You think the politics of clubs is a lot? Try the politics of interacting with
airport managements!
- - - - - -

> Anyway, as usual, I couldn't care less about this thread anymore. The
> forest is once again lost for the trees.

As usual...

Bob W.

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 8:28:41 PM UTC+3, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Brand new winches "can" be expensive? Can be? Wow! There is a plug.
>
> I hear they are well over 100k. Or more! I have heard $250k plus for an advanced european system. "Can" be expensive? I also hear insurance is not cheap either. You say its included? Sure, for the glider. What about the club or operator? When is the last US purchase of a new winch system? What was the price? How many have been purchased in the last 10 years?

You hear?

How about $86k, brand new, ready to launch gliders?

http://www.skylaunchuk.com/skylaunchevo.php

Plus shipping and taxes of course.

It's less than a new Duo Discus or DG1001.

I don't know how many have been bought in the USA, but my club in New Zealand just in the last month or so has ordered and paid 50% deposit on a new winch from this company. Converting from two Pawnees (one's been in the hangar awaiting reconditioning for several years) to one Pawnee plus a winch. And accompanied by an airfield move and associated necessity to build hangars and clubhouse.

I expect our new winch has some of the options, raising the price a bit, but I don't know which ones. Certainly $86k gets you a perfectly functional winch that will launch a lot more gliders for more years than any car.

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 8:34:02 PM UTC+3, Sean Fidler wrote:
> SkyDrive 6-D
>
> New winch assembled, tested & ready to launch.
> 8.2L GM V8 engine / tranmission, fuelled by LPG
> 585L fuel capacity in 3 tanks
> Fully enclosed cab with Skylaunch control system.
> Built as skid unit to fit on lorry or trailer chassis.
>
> Engine Options - 4D/6D:
> Mesh screns: S-52 Front and roof weld mesh safety screens
> Air conditioning: S-53 Cabin air conditioning system
> Seat runners: S-54 Cab seat runners to adjust seat forward /back
> Powered access lift: S-55 Powered access lift to cabin for disabled winch operators - POA
> Cabin heater: S-56 Cab heater, propane powered for use with engine on or off (only available with option S-50
> Signal lamp: S-62 Remote controlled signal lamp system
> Stereo radio: S-63 Stereo Radio/CD player More......
> Transceiver: S-64 Transceiver or receiver, aerial fitted in cab, specs to suit client (POA)
> Power socket: S-65 12 volt ?cigarette lighter? type power socket fitted More......
> Engine tachometer: S-66 Engine tachometer (petrol/propane options only)
> Trailer - 6 drum (POA): S-77 6D Winch fitted on trailer chassis with 4 wheels (2 steering) and parking brake (POA)
> Trailer light system - Skydrive (POA): S-71 Light system includes rear side markers, no plate lamp, fog light, indicators, side lights, reflectors, fully wired with 7 pin plug (POA)
> Spare wheel - Skydrive (POA): S-72 Spare wheel and tyre (POA)
> Cable Equipment Package 6D: S-95 Cable Equipment Package More...... - POA
> Price Exl Vat/carriage: £146,678.00
> US Dollars: $224,578.69 US Dollar
> PLUS VAT, TAX, SHIPPING, ETC
> So, 250k plus USD once all said and done...
> Awesome, cool, but VERY EXPENSIVE and im sure not cheap to insure and to maintain...
>
> just for the record...
>
> http://www.skylaunchuk.com

Oh for ****s sake. Six drums, aircon, wheelchair lift. Radios and signalling systems that won't be in your F350.

Almost three times the price of a perfectly functional two drum winch without the gold plating.

At least we know not to take your arguments seriously now.

I actually hope you and your friends do try auto tow. Keep doing it until you really learn all the drawbacks. When I was 20 something, I was doing auto-tow. I didn't learn how bad an idea it was until I experienced a real winch launch.

Sean, where are you getting this crap about winches. Here are my responses..

All the new winches I know of run well less than $100,000. Home-built winches run around $25,000.

Most clubs have premises liability insurance. Depending on the policy, winch operation may be included. If it isn't, the premiums I hear about run around $500-$600/year but that includes on-road coverage and operations at any airport for camps which premises insurance doesn't cover. If you do auto tow you'd damn well better have premises insurance - you'll need it.

Several Roman's designs have been delivered in the US and at least one brand new Tost will be delivered next month. I think that was well under $50k. Of course the numbers in the rest of the world are much higher.

If anyone is paying more than $500/year on maintenance, they're getting ripped off. The biggest ongoing operations costs are rope replacement at about $1 per launch and fuel for the winch and retrieve vehicle at another $1 per launch.

Conversion to Spectra/Dyneema rope depends on the winch. $2,500 is not an uncommon number. Some winches just aren't worth updating because they really didn't work all that well with wire.

Auto tow is cheaper, simpler? All novices start out thinking this way but reality intrudes pretty quickly. There are about 2,500 winch operations in the world but only about 5 auto tow operations. Many of the winch operations started with auto tow but quickly switched to winches. That should tell you something.


On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 11:28:41 AM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Brand new winches "can" be expensive? Can be? Wow! There is a plug.
>
> I hear they are well over 100k. Or more! I have heard $250k plus for an advanced european system. "Can" be expensive? I also hear insurance is not cheap either. You say its included? Sure, for the glider. What about the club or operator? When is the last US purchase of a new winch system? What was the price? How many have been purchased in the last 10 years? What are clubs paying to maintain new and old winch systems? What are clubs paying to convert them from wire to spectra? I know of one club that is letting their winch rust rather than pay to upgrade.
>
> I have nothing against winches. I think they are fine. But a car and a rope (auto-towing) is the cheapest, easiest to train method of launching a glider, period. Winches are more expensive and far more complex. These are simple facts.
>
> I don't care, but this thread has been entirely hijacked by a bunch of winch people. For what purpose? Why the hyping of winches? Are you kids afraid of being displaced by auto towing? Why? Are you getting a "spiff" from the winch manufacturer perhaps?
>
> My argument is that if I was a 20 year old and had the right situation (airport size, etc), I would rather have my buddy tow me up with his jeep for free than pay $40 for a tow. Now, why not expand this independence to everyone whenever possible. Another benefit of auto-towing is not having to wait in line or deal with a political soaring club environment. Perhaps interesting to some.
>
> Anyway, as usual, I couldn't care less about this thread anymore. The forest is once again lost for the trees.

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 11:34:02 AM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
> SkyDrive 6-D
>
> New winch assembled, tested & ready to launch.
> 8.2L GM V8 engine / tranmission, fuelled by LPG
> 585L fuel capacity in 3 tanks
> Fully enclosed cab with Skylaunch control system.
> Built as skid unit to fit on lorry or trailer chassis.
>
> Engine Options - 4D/6D:
> Mesh screns: S-52 Front and roof weld mesh safety screens
> Air conditioning: S-53 Cabin air conditioning system
> Seat runners: S-54 Cab seat runners to adjust seat forward /back
> Powered access lift: S-55 Powered access lift to cabin for disabled winch operators - POA
> Cabin heater: S-56 Cab heater, propane powered for use with engine on or off (only available with option S-50
> Signal lamp: S-62 Remote controlled signal lamp system
> Stereo radio: S-63 Stereo Radio/CD player More......
> Transceiver: S-64 Transceiver or receiver, aerial fitted in cab, specs to suit client (POA)
> Power socket: S-65 12 volt ?cigarette lighter? type power socket fitted More......
> Engine tachometer: S-66 Engine tachometer (petrol/propane options only)
> Trailer - 6 drum (POA): S-77 6D Winch fitted on trailer chassis with 4 wheels (2 steering) and parking brake (POA)
> Trailer light system - Skydrive (POA): S-71 Light system includes rear side markers, no plate lamp, fog light, indicators, side lights, reflectors, fully wired with 7 pin plug (POA)
> Spare wheel - Skydrive (POA): S-72 Spare wheel and tyre (POA)
> Cable Equipment Package 6D: S-95 Cable Equipment Package More...... - POA
> Price Exl Vat/carriage: £146,678.00
> US Dollars: $224,578.69 US Dollar
> PLUS VAT, TAX, SHIPPING, ETC
> So, 250k plus USD once all said and done...
> Awesome, cool, but VERY EXPENSIVE and im sure not cheap to insure and to maintain...
>
> just for the record...
>
> http://www.skylaunchuk.com

Good reason to buy a winch from someone else.

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 11:14:28 PM UTC+3, wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 11:34:02 AM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > SkyDrive 6-D
> >
> > New winch assembled, tested & ready to launch.
> > 8.2L GM V8 engine / tranmission, fuelled by LPG
> > 585L fuel capacity in 3 tanks
> > Fully enclosed cab with Skylaunch control system.
> > Built as skid unit to fit on lorry or trailer chassis.
> >
> > Engine Options - 4D/6D:
> > Mesh screns: S-52 Front and roof weld mesh safety screens
> > Air conditioning: S-53 Cabin air conditioning system
> > Seat runners: S-54 Cab seat runners to adjust seat forward /back
> > Powered access lift: S-55 Powered access lift to cabin for disabled winch operators - POA
> > Cabin heater: S-56 Cab heater, propane powered for use with engine on or off (only available with option S-50
> > Signal lamp: S-62 Remote controlled signal lamp system
> > Stereo radio: S-63 Stereo Radio/CD player More......
> > Transceiver: S-64 Transceiver or receiver, aerial fitted in cab, specs to suit client (POA)
> > Power socket: S-65 12 volt ?cigarette lighter? type power socket fitted More......
> > Engine tachometer: S-66 Engine tachometer (petrol/propane options only)
> > Trailer - 6 drum (POA): S-77 6D Winch fitted on trailer chassis with 4 wheels (2 steering) and parking brake (POA)
> > Trailer light system - Skydrive (POA): S-71 Light system includes rear side markers, no plate lamp, fog light, indicators, side lights, reflectors, fully wired with 7 pin plug (POA)
> > Spare wheel - Skydrive (POA): S-72 Spare wheel and tyre (POA)
> > Cable Equipment Package 6D: S-95 Cable Equipment Package More...... - POA
> > Price Exl Vat/carriage: £146,678.00
> > US Dollars: $224,578.69 US Dollar
> > PLUS VAT, TAX, SHIPPING, ETC
> > So, 250k plus USD once all said and done...
> > Awesome, cool, but VERY EXPENSIVE and im sure not cheap to insure and to maintain...
> >
> > just for the record...
> >
> > http://www.skylaunchuk.com
>
> Good reason to buy a winch from someone else.

Or, get the basic 2 drum model instead of a fully optioned 6 drum model, for a third of the price.

How many places need to launch six gliders in six minutes?

86k is still a big check. Plus shipping, taxes, insurance and maintenance...

Let me point out, again, the title of this thread.

Winches are fine...

Auto-towing is also a very under-utilized option.

And everyone goes crazy and only wants to discuss winches, and gets irritated when I argue for aero-towing.

RAS...it always delivers entertainment, guaranteed! ;-)

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 4:05:08 AM UTC+3, Sean Fidler wrote:
> 86k is still a big check. Plus shipping, taxes, insurance and maintenance...

It looks like you could option an F350 to about the same price. Would it last as long, or need as little maintainance? I would be surprised.


> And everyone goes crazy and only wants to discuss winches, and gets irritated when I argue for aero-towing.

Aero-towing or auto-towing?

If you have unused old military airfields, or dry lake beds then go for it with auto-towing!

In New Zealand it's hard enough to find space for a winch. Auto-towing surely needs more length for the same altitude.

The only places I can imagine auto-towing in NZ would be beaches. Or maybe on top of a ridge. With a suitable wind you need flying speed more than height.

Though some of the beaches are long enough that you could auto-launch to ridiculous heights with a long enough rope. "90 Mile Beach" has in fact more like only 55 miles of high speed driveable length. But that should be enough :-) There are plenty of other beaches with 5 or 6 mile runs.

A car (and someone to drive it), trailer, and glider with FES could make for very interesting touring holidays.

Am Mittwoch, 28. Oktober 2015 02:05:08 UTC+1 schrieb Sean Fidler:
> 86k is still a big check. Plus shipping, taxes, insurance and maintenance...
>
> Let me point out, again, the title of this thread.
>
> Winches are fine...
>
> Auto-towing is also a very under-utilized option.
>
> And everyone goes crazy and only wants to discuss winches, and gets irritated when I argue for aero-towing.
>
> RAS...it always delivers entertainment, guaranteed! ;-)

It seems that you're the only one getting irritated...
Why do you think in (at least) continental Europe everybody does winch launching instead of auto-towing?
So, the answer to the question in the thread header is simple - because a winch is the better option for any club.

Bert
Ventus cM TW

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 7:05:08 PM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
> 86k is still a big check. Plus shipping, taxes, insurance and maintenance...
>
> Let me point out, again, the title of this thread.
>
> Winches are fine...
>
> Auto-towing is also a very under-utilized option.
>
> And everyone goes crazy and only wants to discuss winches, and gets irritated when I argue for aero-towing.
>
> RAS...it always delivers entertainment, guaranteed! ;-)

Sean, your title to this thread was the question "Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?" Well, you got a clear and simple answer from people with a lifetime of experience - auto isn't more popular because winches are better, much better. Getting steamed up because you don't like the answer is, well, telling.

Shaking my head. You are missing the point entirely.

First, we are in the USA, not Europe. There are endless options for auto-towing in the USA. See earlier post describing a great day in Cadillac, MI.

This "winch, winch, winch" obsession demonstrated on this thread is a big part of the problem for auto-towing I imagine. Ridiculous, but a sad reality. Soaring would be more popular and less expensive if auto-towing was more prevalent. Think colleges for example. Every college could have a soaring program with auto-towing. If it was encouraged as a low cost, minimalist means of soaring, almost anyone could afford it.

Imagine how many more "clubs" could exist on a simple auto-tow strategy. Or, small groups could form without the full club organization required to afford, maintain and manage expensive winches, towplanes, etc. Or, if you want to justify a winch expenditure in your club for the future, why not try auto-towing at first to prove the concept, then go for a winch? Or, why not have both auto-towing and winching in your clubs "arsenal" simply to have the ability to teach/train/utilize all launching methods? We have wave camps, wouldn't an auto-tow camp be fun once in awhile? No, no, no...blasphemy? Maybe near some airport along a ridge or on a beach as the Brits posted earlier.

What a depressing lack of vision and freedom displayed on this thread. Why the "kill auto-towing" press here boys. It makes no sense. There can be both, can there not?

And, if winches are so great, why are they not "gloriously" hard at work at every US club "in mass?" If I took you all at your word, winches should be roaring away everywhere, should they not? The truth is that winches are actually quite rare in the USA. Are they not? Why is this? Why is Europe apparently succeeding with winches when the USA is clearly not?

I have my answer boys. I really do. It is: Few understand the benefits of auto-towing and this is why it is dead in the USA. Everything is boiled down to a club mentality. Nothing left to discuss here. Got it. Thank you!

Perhaps go start a "Winches are great (wait, we're is ours again)" thread? Good luck with this. I'll certainly look forward to commenting, "in kind." A fact base discussion I'll look forward too.

Sean
7T

Bill, I'm not steamed up at all. Look at your responses. I think you are projecting.

I'm laughing my ass off to be perfectly honest, as per usual.

Am Mittwoch, 28. Oktober 2015 15:53:08 UTC+1 schrieb Sean Fidler:
> Shaking my head. You are missing the point entirely.
>
> First, we are in the USA, not Europe. There are endless options for auto-towing in the USA. See earlier post describing a great day in Cadillac, MI.
>
> This "winch, winch, winch" obsession demonstrated on this thread is a big part of the problem for auto-towing I imagine. Ridiculous, but a sad reality. Soaring would be more popular and less expensive if auto-towing was more prevalent. Think colleges for example. Every college could have a soaring program with auto-towing. If it was encouraged as a low cost, minimalist means of soaring, almost anyone could afford it.
>
> Imagine how many more "clubs" could exist on a simple auto-tow strategy. Or, small groups could form without the full club organization required to afford, maintain and manage expensive winches, towplanes, etc. Or, if you want to justify a winch expenditure in your club for the future, why not try auto-towing at first to prove the concept, then go for a winch? Or, why not have both auto-towing and winching in your clubs "arsenal" simply to have the ability to teach/train/utilize all launching methods? We have wave camps, wouldn't an auto-tow camp be fun once in awhile? No, no, no...blasphemy? Maybe near some airport along a ridge or on a beach as the Brits posted earlier.
>
> What a depressing lack of vision and freedom displayed on this thread. Why the "kill auto-towing" press here boys. It makes no sense. There can be both, can there not?
>
> And, if winches are so great, why are they not "gloriously" hard at work at every US club "in mass?" If I took you all at your word, winches should be roaring away everywhere, should they not? The truth is that winches are actually quite rare in the USA. Are they not? Why is this? Why is Europe apparently succeeding with winches when the USA is clearly not?
>
> I have my answer boys. I really do. It is: Few understand the benefits of auto-towing and this is why it is dead in the USA. Everything is boiled down to a club mentality. Nothing left to discuss here. Got it. Thank you!
>
> Perhaps go start a "Winches are great (wait, we're is ours again)" thread? Good luck with this. I'll certainly look forward to commenting, "in kind." A fact base discussion I'll look forward too.
>
> Sean
> 7T

Yep. Same thing as with steamboats. Few understand the benefits of using a steamboat for a business trip from London to New York. That's why they are dead, and everybody uses these expensive airplanes.

Bert
Ventus cM TW

Sean, there are at least ten times as many winch operations in the US as auto tow operation - maybe 20 times. From my information it looks like a third of US clubs now operate winches at least part of the time. And know what? Most of them DID try auto tow and learned from the experience. You'll eventually come around.

I used to carry 2000 feet of auto tow rope in the trunk of my car and used it at many locations around the US. I found that the only really suitable auto tow locations were dry lakes where almost unlimited space was available and there was nothing around to get hurt by the falling rope. Runways were always too short and, because I couldn't pull in the rope like a winch, I broke too many expensive lights with the rope.

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 8:53:08 AM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Shaking my head. You are missing the point entirely.
>
> First, we are in the USA, not Europe. There are endless options for auto-towing in the USA. See earlier post describing a great day in Cadillac, MI.
>
> This "winch, winch, winch" obsession demonstrated on this thread is a big part of the problem for auto-towing I imagine. Ridiculous, but a sad reality. Soaring would be more popular and less expensive if auto-towing was more prevalent. Think colleges for example. Every college could have a soaring program with auto-towing. If it was encouraged as a low cost, minimalist means of soaring, almost anyone could afford it.
>
> Imagine how many more "clubs" could exist on a simple auto-tow strategy. Or, small groups could form without the full club organization required to afford, maintain and manage expensive winches, towplanes, etc. Or, if you want to justify a winch expenditure in your club for the future, why not try auto-towing at first to prove the concept, then go for a winch? Or, why not have both auto-towing and winching in your clubs "arsenal" simply to have the ability to teach/train/utilize all launching methods? We have wave camps, wouldn't an auto-tow camp be fun once in awhile? No, no, no...blasphemy? Maybe near some airport along a ridge or on a beach as the Brits posted earlier.
>
> What a depressing lack of vision and freedom displayed on this thread. Why the "kill auto-towing" press here boys. It makes no sense. There can be both, can there not?
>
> And, if winches are so great, why are they not "gloriously" hard at work at every US club "in mass?" If I took you all at your word, winches should be roaring away everywhere, should they not? The truth is that winches are actually quite rare in the USA. Are they not? Why is this? Why is Europe apparently succeeding with winches when the USA is clearly not?
>
> I have my answer boys. I really do. It is: Few understand the benefits of auto-towing and this is why it is dead in the USA. Everything is boiled down to a club mentality. Nothing left to discuss here. Got it. Thank you!
>
> Perhaps go start a "Winches are great (wait, we're is ours again)" thread? Good luck with this. I'll certainly look forward to commenting, "in kind." A fact base discussion I'll look forward too.
>
> Sean
> 7T

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 9:53:08 AM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Shaking my head. You are missing the point entirely.

Really? Other way around, if you ask me...

> First, we are in the USA, not Europe. There are endless options for auto-towing in the USA. See earlier post describing a great day in Cadillac, MI.

Yep, we're in 'Murica, where all glider clubs have 10,000 ft runways or dry lakebeds to use for auto-towing. I guess here in St Louis we can just go over to Scott AFB/Mid America and use their spare runway (cuz they sure don't use it much!). Othewise, our nice little 2300' grass strip is just a tad short for that super-efficient auto-tow. Bummer, dude.

> This "winch, winch, winch" obsession demonstrated on this thread is a big part of the problem for auto-towing I imagine. Ridiculous, but a sad reality. Soaring would be more popular and less expensive if auto-towing was more prevalent. Think colleges for example. Every college could have a soaring program with auto-towing. If it was encouraged as a low cost, minimalist means of soaring, almost anyone could afford it.

Good luck getting ANY college to get involved in ANY soaring club these days!
"Hey professor, can we borrow your Porsche Cayenne this weekend, the college glider club is going to do some launches down main street in their new Arcus!"

> Imagine how many more "clubs" could exist on a simple auto-tow strategy. Or, small groups could form without the full club organization required to afford, maintain and manage expensive winches, towplanes, etc. Or, if you want to justify a winch expenditure in your club for the future, why not try auto-towing at first to prove the concept, then go for a winch? Or, why not have both auto-towing and winching in your clubs "arsenal" simply to have the ability to teach/train/utilize all launching methods? We have wave camps, wouldn't an auto-tow camp be fun once in awhile? No, no, no...blasphemy? Maybe near some airport along a ridge or on a beach as the Brits posted earlier.

Knock yourself out - set it up!

> What a depressing lack of vision and freedom displayed on this thread. Why the "kill auto-towing" press here boys. It makes no sense. There can be both, can there not?

Do you even read the responses? No-one is trying to "kill auto-towing" - in fact, several clubs actively use the method on special occasions, where there is suitable locations. But you asked why auto-towing wasn't more popular, and got a lot of educated, experienced answers. Deal with it!

> And, if winches are so great, why are they not "gloriously" hard at work at every US club "in mass?" If I took you all at your word, winches should be roaring away everywhere, should they not? The truth is that winches are actually quite rare in the USA. Are they not? Why is this? Why is Europe apparently succeeding with winches when the USA is clearly not?

Two reasons: Cheap fuel and cheap Pawnees (compared to Europe). In case you haven't noticed, there is a resurgence of interest in hi-tech winches in the US as fuel prices and availability of avgas, and the dwindling supply of cheap towplanes, make winching appealing again.

> I have my answer boys. I really do. It is: Few understand the benefits of auto-towing and this is why it is dead in the USA. Everything is boiled down to a club mentality. Nothing left to discuss here. Got it. Thank you!

Wow, you really have your head deep in the sand! Auto-towing is not at all dead in the US - and it's limitations are well recognized. Your reading comprehension is a bit suspect, though!

> Perhaps go start a "Winches are great (wait, we're is ours again)" thread? Good luck with this. I'll certainly look forward to commenting, "in kind." A fact base discussion I'll look forward too.

Winches have already been discussed at length on RAS. Just curious, have you ever done a winch launch or a car launch?

> Sean
> 7T

Kirk
66
(Pawnee tow pilot who also likes winch launches)

Sean
I don't know what you do for a living now. Whatever it is, you need to quit and go to law school. It's the only profession I know that pays exceptionally well for people that love to create arguments out of thin air just for the sheer fun of it. A few years after graduation, a man with your skill set, and natural talent, could afford any launch method he desired.

At the SSA Convention in Greenville this year,
http://ssaconvention.org/


Uli Neumann will give a talk on building a Winch.
http://ssaconvention.org/speakers/ulrich-neumann/

Our club's winch, the inspiration for his talk will also be on display on the convention floor in fron't of our club's booth next to the parachute packing tables.
https://vimeo.com/35481882

It didn't cost $200K, but we might consider selling it for that.


SF

On 10/28/2015 9:10 AM, Tango Whisky wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 28. Oktober 2015 15:53:08 UTC+1 schrieb Sean Fidler:
>> Shaking my head. You are missing the point entirely.
>>
>> First, we are in the USA, not Europe. There are endless options for
>> auto-towing in the USA. See earlier post describing a great day in
>> Cadillac, MI.
>>
>> This "winch, winch, winch" obsession demonstrated on this thread is a big
>> part of the problem for auto-towing I imagine. Ridiculous, but a sad
>> reality. Soaring would be more popular and less expensive if auto-towing
>> was more prevalent. Think colleges for example. Every college could
>> have a soaring program with auto-towing. If it was encouraged as a low
>> cost, minimalist means of soaring, almost anyone could afford it.
>>
>> Imagine how many more "clubs" could exist on a simple auto-tow strategy.
>> Or, small groups could form without the full club organization required
>> to afford, maintain and manage expensive winches, towplanes, etc. Or, if
>> you want to justify a winch expenditure in your club for the future, why
>> not try auto-towing at first to prove the concept, then go for a winch?
>> Or, why not have both auto-towing and winching in your clubs "arsenal"
>> simply to have the ability to teach/train/utilize all launching methods?
>> We have wave camps, wouldn't an auto-tow camp be fun once in awhile? No,
>> no, no...blasphemy? Maybe near some airport along a ridge or on a beach
>> as the Brits posted earlier.
>>
>> What a depressing lack of vision and freedom displayed on this thread.
>> Why the "kill auto-towing" press here boys. It makes no sense. There
>> can be both, can there not?
>>
>> And, if winches are so great, why are they not "gloriously" hard at work
>> at every US club "in mass?" If I took you all at your word, winches
>> should be roaring away everywhere, should they not? The truth is that
>> winches are actually quite rare in the USA. Are they not? Why is this?
>> Why is Europe apparently succeeding with winches when the USA is clearly
>> not?
>>
>> I have my answer boys. I really do. It is: Few understand the benefits
>> of auto-towing and this is why it is dead in the USA. Everything is
>> boiled down to a club mentality. Nothing left to discuss here. Got it.
>> Thank you!
>>
>> Perhaps go start a "Winches are great (wait, we're is ours again)"
>> thread? Good luck with this. I'll certainly look forward to commenting,
>> "in kind." A fact base discussion I'll look forward too.
>>
>> Sean 7T
>
> Yep. Same thing as with steamboats. Few understand the benefits of using a
> steamboat for a business trip from London to New York. That's why they are
> dead, and everybody uses these expensive airplanes.
>
> Bert Ventus cM TW
>

Chortle. Count me as one who's seen/done auto-towing and winching, the former
done safely and well on an airport in "along-the-runway" wind conditions, the
latter done both dodgily, and well. As soon as those monopolistic winch
manufacturers send me my royalty checks for shilling for 'em, I'll be happy to
vote for winching as by far the less troublesome and easy to do, with a
modicum of safety for all.

Meanwhile, knock yourself out having a blast auto-towing (use your own
vehicle, to be righteous to the unwashed you "rope in"). If you don't do
something spectacularly dumb (and already done by lots of others before), you
*will* have a blast...but if ignorance-based Darwinism is part of your plan
(Look Ma! No experience!), you may enrich those monopolistic coroners and
hospitals, and experience a major downer. Don't sweat insurance; it doesn't
matter so long as your intentions are good.

Please do report back on RAS, too.

Bob W.

You guys are getting a little frothy on the mouth insane now. Hlarious.

Is Auto-towing the soaring equivilent of the devil? Did I miss something?

I never said auto-towing was equal to winching.

You say "10x more winches than auto-towing" in the US. I agree, but this is an idiotic statement. I never said there were many auto-towing operatons.. My thread asks why are they not more popular. I argue Auto-towing may cheaper and easier than buying a winch and getting organized around them. Again, winches are fine but far from perfect solutions for soaring clubs. If they were...they would be everywhere, would they not?

Are there even 10 winches in the USA that are actively used? I doubt it. If so, please name them. Club, State, City...

1) CLUB, STATE, CITY...
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)

Thanks and here is a tissue to wipe the froth of your mouths...wow.

Sean
7T

Having used both launch methods, I can say unequivocally that a winch
launch is far batter than an auto tow. Why? Simply the power applied
to the cable. The car has to move itself as well as the glider. The
engine/transmission removed from the car will launch the glider higher
and quicker. All the talk about the cost of a winch vs. you donating
your car to be beaten to death has been, ahem, beaten to death, so I
won't comment further on that.

Europe uses more winches because of their small fields, expensive gas,
and who knows how expensive maintenance. The US has much more open
space and large, vacant airports for our use.

The Las Vegas Valley Soaring Association has ground launch weekends
twice per year, weather permitting. I know it would be a long drive
from Michigan, but why not venture out west come April?

On 10/28/2015 8:53 AM, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Shaking my head. You are missing the point entirely.
>
> First, we are in the USA, not Europe. There are endless options for auto-towing in the USA. See earlier post describing a great day in Cadillac, MI.
>
> This "winch, winch, winch" obsession demonstrated on this thread is a big part of the problem for auto-towing I imagine. Ridiculous, but a sad reality. Soaring would be more popular and less expensive if auto-towing was more prevalent. Think colleges for example. Every college could have a soaring program with auto-towing. If it was encouraged as a low cost, minimalist means of soaring, almost anyone could afford it.
>
> Imagine how many more "clubs" could exist on a simple auto-tow strategy. Or, small groups could form without the full club organization required to afford, maintain and manage expensive winches, towplanes, etc. Or, if you want to justify a winch expenditure in your club for the future, why not try auto-towing at first to prove the concept, then go for a winch? Or, why not have both auto-towing and winching in your clubs "arsenal" simply to have the ability to teach/train/utilize all launching methods? We have wave camps, wouldn't an auto-tow camp be fun once in awhile? No, no, no...blasphemy? Maybe near some airport along a ridge or on a beach as the Brits posted earlier.
>
> What a depressing lack of vision and freedom displayed on this thread. Why the "kill auto-towing" press here boys. It makes no sense. There can be both, can there not?
>
> And, if winches are so great, why are they not "gloriously" hard at work at every US club "in mass?" If I took you all at your word, winches should be roaring away everywhere, should they not? The truth is that winches are actually quite rare in the USA. Are they not? Why is this? Why is Europe apparently succeeding with winches when the USA is clearly not?
>
> I have my answer boys. I really do. It is: Few understand the benefits of auto-towing and this is why it is dead in the USA. Everything is boiled down to a club mentality. Nothing left to discuss here. Got it. Thank you!
>
> Perhaps go start a "Winches are great (wait, we're is ours again)" thread? Good luck with this. I'll certainly look forward to commenting, "in kind." A fact base discussion I'll look forward too.
>
> Sean
> 7T

--
Dan, 5J

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 5:53:08 PM UTC+3, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Shaking my head. You are missing the point entirely.
>
> First, we are in the USA, not Europe. There are endless options for auto-towing in the USA. See earlier post describing a great day in Cadillac, MI.
>
> This "winch, winch, winch" obsession demonstrated on this thread is a big part of the problem for auto-towing I imagine. Ridiculous, but a sad reality. Soaring would be more popular and less expensive if auto-towing was more prevalent. Think colleges for example. Every college could have a soaring program with auto-towing. If it was encouraged as a low cost, minimalist means of soaring, almost anyone could afford it.
>
> Imagine how many more "clubs" could exist on a simple auto-tow strategy. Or, small groups could form without the full club organization required to afford, maintain and manage expensive winches, towplanes, etc. Or, if you want to justify a winch expenditure in your club for the future, why not try auto-towing at first to prove the concept, then go for a winch? Or, why not have both auto-towing and winching in your clubs "arsenal" simply to have the ability to teach/train/utilize all launching methods? We have wave camps, wouldn't an auto-tow camp be fun once in awhile? No, no, no...blasphemy? Maybe near some airport along a ridge or on a beach as the Brits posted earlier.
>
> What a depressing lack of vision and freedom displayed on this thread. Why the "kill auto-towing" press here boys. It makes no sense. There can be both, can there not?
>
> And, if winches are so great, why are they not "gloriously" hard at work at every US club "in mass?" If I took you all at your word, winches should be roaring away everywhere, should they not? The truth is that winches are actually quite rare in the USA. Are they not? Why is this? Why is Europe apparently succeeding with winches when the USA is clearly not?
>
> I have my answer boys. I really do. It is: Few understand the benefits of auto-towing and this is why it is dead in the USA. Everything is boiled down to a club mentality. Nothing left to discuss here. Got it. Thank you!
>
> Perhaps go start a "Winches are great (wait, we're is ours again)" thread? Good luck with this. I'll certainly look forward to commenting, "in kind." A fact base discussion I'll look forward too.
>
> Sean
> 7T

"why not try auto-towing at first to prove the concept, then go for a winch?"

Because most people DON'T HAVE A VERY LONG SMOOTH SPACE in which to do it. Simple as that.

Ya know, Guys, I gotta agree with Sean on this one. It doesn't matter
how educated, well thought out, experienced, or crazy your answers are.
He will continue to rattle your cages and stir the pot (to coin a few
phrases). I can hear his laughter and I'm enjoying the discussion, as
well. Frankly, I can't wait to meet Sean somewhere on the road at some
"glider thing". I'll bet he's quite entertaining, maybe even
level-headed, but that remains to be seen.

C'mon, Sean. Come to Roach Dry Lake, NV next April for the Ground
Launch Weekend. I'd love to meet you! I'll even have a nice, cold
Alien Ale for you (really, it's a local brand in Moriarty).

Regards,
Dan

On 10/28/2015 1:29 PM, Sean Fidler wrote:
> You guys are getting a little frothy on the mouth insane now. Hlarious.
>
> Is Auto-towing the soaring equivilent of the devil? Did I miss something?
>
> I never said auto-towing was equal to winching.
>
> You say "10x more winches than auto-towing" in the US. I agree, but this is an idiotic statement. I never said there were many auto-towing operatons. My thread asks why are they not more popular. I argue Auto-towing may cheaper and easier than buying a winch and getting organized around them. Again, winches are fine but far from perfect solutions for soaring clubs. If they were...they would be everywhere, would they not?
>
> Are there even 10 winches in the USA that are actively used? I doubt it. If so, please name them. Club, State, City...
>
> 1) CLUB, STATE, CITY...
> 2)
> 3)
> 4)
> 5)
> 6)
> 7)
> 8)
> 9)
> 10)
>
> Thanks and here is a tissue to wipe the froth of your mouths...wow.
>
> Sean
> 7T
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

See new subject.
Jim

On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 8:54:23 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I'll even have a nice, cold
> Alien Ale for you (really, it's a local brand in Moriarty).
>
> Dan, 5J

On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 10:54:23 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Ya know, Guys, I gotta agree with Sean on this one.* It doesn't
> matter how educated, well thought out, experienced, or crazy your
> answers are.* He will continue to rattle your cages and stir the pot
> (to coin a few phrases).* I can hear his laughter and I'm enjoying
> the discussion, as well.* Frankly, I can't wait to meet Sean
> somewhere on the road at some "glider thing".* I'll bet he's quite
> entertaining, maybe even level-headed, but that remains to be seen.
>
>
>
> C'mon, Sean.* Come to Roach Dry Lake, NV next April for the Ground
> Launch Weekend.* I'd love to meet you!* I'll even have a nice, cold
> Alien Ale for you (really, it's a local brand in Moriarty).
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> On 10/28/2015 1:29 PM, Sean Fidler
> wrote:
>
>
>
> You guys are getting a little frothy on the mouth insane now. Hlarious.
>
> Is Auto-towing the soaring equivilent of the devil? Did I miss something?
>
> I never said auto-towing was equal to winching.
>
> You say "10x more winches than auto-towing" in the US. I agree, but this is an idiotic statement. I never said there were many auto-towing operatons. My thread asks why are they not more popular. I argue Auto-towing may cheaper and easier than buying a winch and getting organized around them. Again, winches are fine but far from perfect solutions for soaring clubs. If they were...they would be everywhere, would they not?
>
> Are there even 10 winches in the USA that are actively used? I doubt it. If so, please name them. Club, State, City...
>
> 1) CLUB, STATE, CITY...
> 2)
> 3)
> 4)
> 5)
> 6)
> 7)
> 8)
> 9)
> 10)
>
> Thanks and here is a tissue to wipe the froth of your mouths...wow.
>
> Sean
> 7T
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan, 5J

"Frankly, I can't wait to meet Sean somewhere on the road at some "glider thing"."
Careful what you wish for, Dan. What if whatever he has - is infectious?

Here is what I posted in the Pulley Launch Yahoo! Group today:

Almost two years ago Mike Logback built some pulleys for glider launching here but we haven't every used them. I found a good deal on some rope and bought 4000 feet this week. I think Mike posted pictures of his Pulley but its a lawn mower front rim with a nice greased bearing on a 2" receiver to go in a standard receiver hitch here in the US.

Method was what John Campbell calls the "Auto-Pulley Tow" here: http://www.coloradosoaring.org/thinking_pages/ground_launching/winching/john_campbell.htm

We launched our Schweizer 2-33 with the standard nose hook.Tow car was my 2014 Subaru Outback 3.6L. Anchor vehicle was Mikes Ford F-150

Headwind was 10-15 mph. Car speed was 20 mph, which kept it in 1st gear. One time it did try to shift into 2nd which resulted in the speed quickly jumping from a nice 55-60 mph on the glider end to an uncomfortable high 60's. Ground Launch Redline is 69 mph. In the future we'll put the automatic transmission in its Manual mode to hold it in 1st gear for the launch.

Flights were done solo and dual. heights acheived were between 1400 and 1600 agl depending on weight. On the first two flights I was able to hook thermals and climb away. Great fun.

After launch we removed the rope from the pulley on the Subaru and drove the Ford back to the launch point. Result was the rope was laid out nice and straight on the runway and ready for the next launch.

We fly at Sunflower Gliderport in Kansas. 7000 feet long by 200 feet wide former Naval Air Station. Paved runway.

Great fun! Looking forward to doing more!

The Douglas County Composite Squadron of the Civil Air Patrol spent the past three days doing auto-tows at Silver Springs Airport. We managed to do 41 tows in two and a half days, averaging 900' AGL. Used a Ford 4WD pickup with sandbags in the back. Remember to put it in 4WD and push the "TOW-HAUL" button before launch so the transmission does not shift into overdrive just as you're reaching 60 MPH. The cadets (and senior members too) enjoy the quick ride, and for those under instruction there is lots of takeoff/landing practice.

I wrote an article for the UK "Sailplane and Gliding, Dec 2013 / Jan 2014". Title was "The Expedition Glider Pilot's Guide to Launching".It covered bungeying (of course) and also what I have called "modified auto-towing". The modification is the use of pulleys (ground and car) to give a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio. The car travels at 1/2 or 1/3 of the glider rope speed ( and distance of course), with much less bumping around for the tow car (and occupants), and all very civilised. The car can continue to pull in the rope ( against the drogue if you wish) thus preventing the problem of long ropes falling all over the countryside. It is more akin to a winch launch, rather than a standard auto or simple reverse pulley autotow. If you send me an email on I can send an electronic copy of the article (for personal use, you would need my and the Sailplane and Gliding Editor's permission to publish further). Pete Whitehead

Meanwhile in Europe:

http://www.lange-aviation.com/produkte/antares-18t/autoschlepp/

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 12:06:52 PM UTC-8, Alex wrote:
> Meanwhile in Europe:
>
> http://www.lange-aviation.com/produkte/antares-18t/autoschlepp/

Cool! Auto tow to ~700' with the turbo running. But no fremdsprache link on the Lange website?
Should be a good technique for other sustainers. Imagine jets would be the best?
Jim

>Cool! Auto tow to ~700' with the turbo running. But no fremdsprache link
on
>the Lange website?

Happy to hear that you enjoy it.
As you may have noticed, the whole website is new, and there has not yet
been time to have everything translated. Please be patient (and in the
meantime risk using google translate
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lange-aviation.com%2Fprodukte%2Fantares-18t%2Fautoschlepp%2F&edit-text=
).

No translation needed:
https://youtu.be/b1NIDppkmKU

Andor

Everybody's doing it!

https://vimeo.com/147417792

That hitch mounted release is a thing of beauty. Probably costs more than a 1-26 though :-) http://www.lange-aviation.com/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_Autoschlepp_Kupplung_b17ea3f248.jpg

On Wednesday, December 2, 2015 at 1:46:42 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
> That hitch mounted release is a thing of beauty. Probably costs more than a 1-26 though :-) http://www.lange-aviation.com/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_Autoschlepp_Kupplung_b17ea3f248.jpg

They cost about the same as a 1-26.

On Wednesday, December 2, 2015 at 1:46:42 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
> That hitch mounted release is a thing of beauty. Probably costs more than a 1-26 though :-) http://www.lange-aviation.com/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_Autoschlepp_Kupplung_b17ea3f248.jpg

What a great use for one of those perfectly good hooks removed for the replacement cycle.
UH

On Wednesday, December 2, 2015 at 6:56:29 PM UTC-6, wrote:
>
> What a great use for one of those perfectly good hooks removed for the replacement cycle.
> UH

That is what I did. Have one "too old to overhaul"? Send it back to me, and I will put it into ground launch service. I probably have two or three in this category right now.

Steve Leonard

.... and I JUST sent one in two weeks ago. Doh!

7T......Reading your October post on Auto Tow. But first gotta tell you I have LS-1f N57T. Contest number original to Rudy Moser was 7T when I bought it in 1984.
Concerning auto tow, I used to do it quite a bit. Having learned to fly on the winch in a 2-22 at Black Forest in 1965, I found auto towing pretty much the same. The system which We all liked best was to use a pulley. Glider accelleration is so fast that two people, pilot and driver sufficed. The late Mike Evans and I used to fly together at Westcliffe, Colorado all the time. Using wing stands only we never needed a wing runner, and never ever had any problems. Radio is essential between pilot and driver. We could fine tune airspeed by voice communication. If you need 10 more knots at the glider, remember to ask only for five. The glider is traveling at twice the car speed. The reason we used the pulley was so we could tow with my manual stick Toyota Land Cruiser. With the pulley we did the entire tow in 2nd gear and did not need to shift. Shifting would have put a big strain on the car, and we were afraid it would have induced a big interuption of speed. To pulley tow with a single pulley you need a long runway and a lot of rope. We had a 4300' 3/8 poly rope with weak links at each end. We routinely saw tows ranging from 1700 to 1900 feet. At Westcliffe I cannot think of a many times that any of us had to relight. During winter the primary wave of the Sangre de Cristo Mountains is overhead and believe it or not we used to often find strong wave lift as low as 400 and 500 feet agl. Unless I had enciuntered it often and someone told me I would not believe it. But it's true. During summer thermals were plentiful and a 1700 foot tow worked fine. I did straight auto tows later when living at Pinedale Wyoming. I had a 2500 foot rope and 1600 feet agl was pretty standard. If you are going for quantity of flights then aerotow is probably faster. Repositioning the rope eats up time. I always had a parachute on the end of the rope with a 15 foot leader from the apex of the chute to the glider. That way the rope layed out straight. If after the glider has released from a pulley tow, and there is runway remaining the car can continue which pulls the rope and parachute closer to the pulley with a straight rope as the parachute lands. athis saves lots of retrieval time. C.G. hooks work best for ground launch. Nose hooks with too much back pressure at the top of the launch will cause the glider to porpoise. Releasing some back pressure remedies that. If you can get endorsed by an instructor with experience, I highly recommend ground launching. The runways we used were 6000 feet long. The setup we used to pulley tow was to attach the end of the rop to another car parked well off to the side of the runway, then loop the rope through the snatch block pulley securely tied to the tow hitch on the tow car. We tied it because it needs to be flexable. Then we pulled away from the glider. In order to tow towards the glider as in the case of a short runway, you need a second pulley to reverse direction. The pulley or pulleys need to be high quality with ball bearings and grease fittings. Mine have always been about 6 inch diameter. Also dont use nylon rope. Too much stretch. After liftoff on the pulley tow expect some bowing or slack as there is some sling shot effect as the stretch comes out of the rope. It only lasts a couple seconds so do not rotate into a steeper attitude until the rope is tight again.

On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 11:38:29 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> 7T......Reading your October post on Auto Tow. But first gotta tell you I have LS-1f N57T. Contest number original to Rudy Moser was 7T when I bought it in 1984.
> Concerning auto tow, I used to do it quite a bit. Having learned to fly on the winch in a 2-22 at Black Forest in 1965, I found auto towing pretty much the same. The system which We all liked best was to use a pulley. Glider accelleration is so fast that two people, pilot and driver sufficed. The late Mike Evans and I used to fly together at Westcliffe, Colorado all the time. Using wing stands only we never needed a wing runner, and never ever had any problems. Radio is essential between pilot and driver. We could fine tune airspeed by voice communication. If you need 10 more knots at the glider, remember to ask only for five. The glider is traveling at twice the car speed. The reason we used the pulley was so we could tow with my manual stick Toyota Land Cruiser. With the pulley we did the entire tow in 2nd gear and did not need to shift. Shifting would have put a big strain on the car, and we were afraid it would have induced a big interuption of speed. To pulley tow with a single pulley you need a long runway and a lot of rope. We had a 4300' 3/8 poly rope with weak links at each end. We routinely saw tows ranging from 1700 to 1900 feet. At Westcliffe I cannot think of a many times that any of us had to relight. During winter the primary wave of the Sangre de Cristo Mountains is overhead and believe it or not we used to often find strong wave lift as low as 400 and 500 feet agl. Unless I had enciuntered it often and someone told me I would not believe it. But it's true. During summer thermals were plentiful and a 1700 foot tow worked fine. I did straight auto tows later when living at Pinedale Wyoming. I had a 2500 foot rope and 1600 feet agl was pretty standard. If you are going for quantity of flights then aerotow is probably faster. Repositioning the rope eats up time. I always had a parachute on the end of the rope with a 15 foot leader from the apex of the chute to the glider. That way the rope layed out straight. If after the glider has released from a pulley tow, and there is runway remaining the car can continue which pulls the rope and parachute closer to the pulley with a straight rope as the parachute lands. athis saves lots of retrieval time. C.G. hooks work best for ground launch. Nose hooks with too much back pressure at the top of the launch will cause the glider to porpoise. Releasing some back pressure remedies that. If you can get endorsed by an instructor with experience, I highly recommend ground launching. The runways we used were 6000 feet long. The setup we used to pulley tow was to attach the end of the rop to another car parked well off to the side of the runway, then loop the rope through the snatch block pulley securely tied to the tow hitch on the tow car. We tied it because it needs to be flexable. Then we pulled away from the glider. In order to tow towards the glider as in the case of a short runway, you need a second pulley to reverse direction. The pulley or pulleys need to be high quality with ball bearings and grease fittings. Mine have always been about 6 inch diameter. Also dont use nylon rope. Too much stretch. After liftoff on the pulley tow expect some bowing or slack as there is some sling shot effect as the stretch comes out of the rope. It only lasts a couple seconds so do not rotate into a steeper attitude until the rope is tight again.

Mike,

We've started doing a little pulley experimenting in the same manner you describe. Our biggest mistake was in starting out using a low quality pulley. We had a lawn mower front wheel rim, with a greased bushing. The first day of launching we did it worked OK but once it starts to lose grease it gets hot quick. On our second day of launching with it it overheated and seized.. So now we will upgrade, likely to a trailer spindle and rim, which is actually designed for the kinds of loads and speeds that we subject it to on a pulley launch.

Launching our 2-22 and 2-33 with the pulley we were getting about 1500 feet high launches. 4000 feet of rope and 7000 foot runway, without very aggressive technique. Great fun!

On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 8:48:46 AM UTC-6, Tony wrote:
> On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 11:38:29 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> > 7T......Reading your October post on Auto Tow. But first gotta tell you I have LS-1f N57T. Contest number original to Rudy Moser was 7T when I bought it in 1984.
> > Concerning auto tow, I used to do it quite a bit. Having learned to fly on the winch in a 2-22 at Black Forest in 1965, I found auto towing pretty much the same. The system which We all liked best was to use a pulley. Glider accelleration is so fast that two people, pilot and driver sufficed. The late Mike Evans and I used to fly together at Westcliffe, Colorado all the time. Using wing stands only we never needed a wing runner, and never ever had any problems. Radio is essential between pilot and driver. We could fine tune airspeed by voice communication. If you need 10 more knots at the glider, remember to ask only for five. The glider is traveling at twice the car speed. The reason we used the pulley was so we could tow with my manual stick Toyota Land Cruiser. With the pulley we did the entire tow in 2nd gear and did not need to shift. Shifting would have put a big strain on the car, and we were afraid it would have induced a big interuption of speed. To pulley tow with a single pulley you need a long runway and a lot of rope. We had a 4300' 3/8 poly rope with weak links at each end. We routinely saw tows ranging from 1700 to 1900 feet. At Westcliffe I cannot think of a many times that any of us had to relight. During winter the primary wave of the Sangre de Cristo Mountains is overhead and believe it or not we used to often find strong wave lift as low as 400 and 500 feet agl. Unless I had enciuntered it often and someone told me I would not believe it. But it's true. During summer thermals were plentiful and a 1700 foot tow worked fine. I did straight auto tows later when living at Pinedale Wyoming. I had a 2500 foot rope and 1600 feet agl was pretty standard. If you are going for quantity of flights then aerotow is probably faster. Repositioning the rope eats up time. I always had a parachute on the end of the rope with a 15 foot leader from the apex of the chute to the glider. That way the rope layed out straight. If after the glider has released from a pulley tow, and there is runway remaining the car can continue which pulls the rope and parachute closer to the pulley with a straight rope as the parachute lands. athis saves lots of retrieval time. C.G. hooks work best for ground launch. Nose hooks with too much back pressure at the top of the launch will cause the glider to porpoise. Releasing some back pressure remedies that. If you can get endorsed by an instructor with experience, I highly recommend ground launching. The runways we used were 6000 feet long. The setup we used to pulley tow was to attach the end of the rop to another car parked well off to the side of the runway, then loop the rope through the snatch block pulley securely tied to the tow hitch on the tow car. We tied it because it needs to be flexable. Then we pulled away from the glider. In order to tow towards the glider as in the case of a short runway, you need a second pulley to reverse direction. The pulley or pulleys need to be high quality with ball bearings and grease fittings. Mine have always been about 6 inch diameter. Also dont use nylon rope. Too much stretch. After liftoff on the pulley tow expect some bowing or slack as there is some sling shot effect as the stretch comes out of the rope. It only lasts a couple seconds so do not rotate into a steeper attitude until the rope is tight again.
>
> Mike,
>
> We've started doing a little pulley experimenting in the same manner you describe. Our biggest mistake was in starting out using a low quality pulley. We had a lawn mower front wheel rim, with a greased bushing. The first day of launching we did it worked OK but once it starts to lose grease it gets hot quick. On our second day of launching with it it overheated and seized. So now we will upgrade, likely to a trailer spindle and rim, which is actually designed for the kinds of loads and speeds that we subject it to on a pulley launch.
>
> Launching our 2-22 and 2-33 with the pulley we were getting about 1500 feet high launches. 4000 feet of rope and 7000 foot runway, without very aggressive technique. Great fun!

Tony and Mike, I'd be interested to know what the turn-around time is (was) between tows. How do you collect and retrieve the mess of tow-line and take it back to the take-off site without spending much time? There's a good reason why winches spool the entire length of wire or Spectra on the drum after glider release.
Herb

On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 9:45:28 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 8:48:46 AM UTC-6, Tony wrote:
> > On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 11:38:29 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> > > 7T......Reading your October post on Auto Tow. But first gotta tell you I have LS-1f N57T. Contest number original to Rudy Moser was 7T when I bought it in 1984.
> > > Concerning auto tow, I used to do it quite a bit. Having learned to fly on the winch in a 2-22 at Black Forest in 1965, I found auto towing pretty much the same. The system which We all liked best was to use a pulley. Glider accelleration is so fast that two people, pilot and driver sufficed. The late Mike Evans and I used to fly together at Westcliffe, Colorado all the time. Using wing stands only we never needed a wing runner, and never ever had any problems. Radio is essential between pilot and driver. We could fine tune airspeed by voice communication. If you need 10 more knots at the glider, remember to ask only for five. The glider is traveling at twice the car speed. The reason we used the pulley was so we could tow with my manual stick Toyota Land Cruiser. With the pulley we did the entire tow in 2nd gear and did not need to shift. Shifting would have put a big strain on the car, and we were afraid it would have induced a big interuption of speed. To pulley tow with a single pulley you need a long runway and a lot of rope. We had a 4300' 3/8 poly rope with weak links at each end.. We routinely saw tows ranging from 1700 to 1900 feet. At Westcliffe I cannot think of a many times that any of us had to relight. During winter the primary wave of the Sangre de Cristo Mountains is overhead and believe it or not we used to often find strong wave lift as low as 400 and 500 feet agl. Unless I had enciuntered it often and someone told me I would not believe it. But it's true. During summer thermals were plentiful and a 1700 foot tow worked fine. I did straight auto tows later when living at Pinedale Wyoming. I had a 2500 foot rope and 1600 feet agl was pretty standard. If you are going for quantity of flights then aerotow is probably faster. Repositioning the rope eats up time. I always had a parachute on the end of the rope with a 15 foot leader from the apex of the chute to the glider. That way the rope layed out straight. If after the glider has released from a pulley tow, and there is runway remaining the car can continue which pulls the rope and parachute closer to the pulley with a straight rope as the parachute lands. athis saves lots of retrieval time. C.G. hooks work best for ground launch. Nose hooks with too much back pressure at the top of the launch will cause the glider to porpoise. Releasing some back pressure remedies that. If you can get endorsed by an instructor with experience, I highly recommend ground launching. The runways we used were 6000 feet long. The setup we used to pulley tow was to attach the end of the rop to another car parked well off to the side of the runway, then loop the rope through the snatch block pulley securely tied to the tow hitch on the tow car.. We tied it because it needs to be flexable. Then we pulled away from the glider. In order to tow towards the glider as in the case of a short runway, you need a second pulley to reverse direction. The pulley or pulleys need to be high quality with ball bearings and grease fittings. Mine have always been about 6 inch diameter. Also dont use nylon rope. Too much stretch. After liftoff on the pulley tow expect some bowing or slack as there is some sling shot effect as the stretch comes out of the rope. It only lasts a couple seconds so do not rotate into a steeper attitude until the rope is tight again.
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > We've started doing a little pulley experimenting in the same manner you describe. Our biggest mistake was in starting out using a low quality pulley. We had a lawn mower front wheel rim, with a greased bushing. The first day of launching we did it worked OK but once it starts to lose grease it gets hot quick. On our second day of launching with it it overheated and seized. So now we will upgrade, likely to a trailer spindle and rim, which is actually designed for the kinds of loads and speeds that we subject it to on a pulley launch.
> >
> > Launching our 2-22 and 2-33 with the pulley we were getting about 1500 feet high launches. 4000 feet of rope and 7000 foot runway, without very aggressive technique. Great fun!
>
> Tony and Mike, I'd be interested to know what the turn-around time is (was) between tows. How do you collect and retrieve the mess of tow-line and take it back to the take-off site without spending much time? There's a good reason why winches spool the entire length of wire or Spectra on the drum after glider release.
> Herb

Herb,

For Pulley launches here is what we did: Glider Releases, car stops, car removes pulley and therefore removes rope from the car. Glider drops rope on the runway or very near. Car drives to anchor vehicle, which releases its end of the rope, grabs that end of the rope and drives to the launch point. Now the rope is laid out nice and straight on the runway. reattach the previous glider end of the rope to the anchor vehicle and thread the rope back through the pulley. Ready for next launch.

For straight auto tows: Glider releases rope to drop on or very near the runway. Car stops, turns around, and drives back to the launch point, then releases its rope. Rope is now laid out straight, no slack, and ready for next launch.

For straight auto tows the car usually meets the glider right after landing.. Add the time it takes to brief the next flight or swap out pilots and there is essentially no delay. Turning around the pulley takes a few more minutes but the launch height is a little higher so that buys some time.

We have a wide runway (200 feet) with no lights and usually empty fields adjacent, so if the rope lands a little wide it's no big deal.

On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 5:48:46 PM UTC+3, Tony wrote:
> On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 11:38:29 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> > 7T......Reading your October post on Auto Tow. But first gotta tell you I have LS-1f N57T. Contest number original to Rudy Moser was 7T when I bought it in 1984.
> > Concerning auto tow, I used to do it quite a bit. Having learned to fly on the winch in a 2-22 at Black Forest in 1965, I found auto towing pretty much the same. The system which We all liked best was to use a pulley. Glider accelleration is so fast that two people, pilot and driver sufficed. The late Mike Evans and I used to fly together at Westcliffe, Colorado all the time. Using wing stands only we never needed a wing runner, and never ever had any problems. Radio is essential between pilot and driver. We could fine tune airspeed by voice communication. If you need 10 more knots at the glider, remember to ask only for five. The glider is traveling at twice the car speed. The reason we used the pulley was so we could tow with my manual stick Toyota Land Cruiser. With the pulley we did the entire tow in 2nd gear and did not need to shift. Shifting would have put a big strain on the car, and we were afraid it would have induced a big interuption of speed. To pulley tow with a single pulley you need a long runway and a lot of rope. We had a 4300' 3/8 poly rope with weak links at each end. We routinely saw tows ranging from 1700 to 1900 feet. At Westcliffe I cannot think of a many times that any of us had to relight. During winter the primary wave of the Sangre de Cristo Mountains is overhead and believe it or not we used to often find strong wave lift as low as 400 and 500 feet agl. Unless I had enciuntered it often and someone told me I would not believe it. But it's true. During summer thermals were plentiful and a 1700 foot tow worked fine. I did straight auto tows later when living at Pinedale Wyoming. I had a 2500 foot rope and 1600 feet agl was pretty standard. If you are going for quantity of flights then aerotow is probably faster. Repositioning the rope eats up time. I always had a parachute on the end of the rope with a 15 foot leader from the apex of the chute to the glider. That way the rope layed out straight. If after the glider has released from a pulley tow, and there is runway remaining the car can continue which pulls the rope and parachute closer to the pulley with a straight rope as the parachute lands. athis saves lots of retrieval time. C.G. hooks work best for ground launch. Nose hooks with too much back pressure at the top of the launch will cause the glider to porpoise. Releasing some back pressure remedies that. If you can get endorsed by an instructor with experience, I highly recommend ground launching. The runways we used were 6000 feet long. The setup we used to pulley tow was to attach the end of the rop to another car parked well off to the side of the runway, then loop the rope through the snatch block pulley securely tied to the tow hitch on the tow car. We tied it because it needs to be flexable. Then we pulled away from the glider. In order to tow towards the glider as in the case of a short runway, you need a second pulley to reverse direction. The pulley or pulleys need to be high quality with ball bearings and grease fittings. Mine have always been about 6 inch diameter. Also dont use nylon rope. Too much stretch. After liftoff on the pulley tow expect some bowing or slack as there is some sling shot effect as the stretch comes out of the rope. It only lasts a couple seconds so do not rotate into a steeper attitude until the rope is tight again.
>
> Mike,
>
> We've started doing a little pulley experimenting in the same manner you describe. Our biggest mistake was in starting out using a low quality pulley. We had a lawn mower front wheel rim, with a greased bushing. The first day of launching we did it worked OK but once it starts to lose grease it gets hot quick. On our second day of launching with it it overheated and seized. So now we will upgrade, likely to a trailer spindle and rim, which is actually designed for the kinds of loads and speeds that we subject it to on a pulley launch.
>
> Launching our 2-22 and 2-33 with the pulley we were getting about 1500 feet high launches. 4000 feet of rope and 7000 foot runway, without very aggressive technique. Great fun!

Wait .. how does this work?

The fixed car is next to the middle of the runway (well, 4/7ths down it with 4000 ft rope on a 7000 ft runway), and the moving car starts from adjacent to the fixed car?

On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 8:48:46 AM UTC-6, Tony wrote:

> Launching our 2-22 and 2-33 with the pulley we were getting about 1500 feet high launches. 4000 feet of rope and 7000 foot runway, without very aggressive technique. Great fun!

And nose hooks. Not the part way back Schwiezer semi-C.G. hook.

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 5:52:29 AM UTC+11, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Tow pilot lobby?* Ha!
>
>
>
> Send them to Moriarty so I can step down from towing.* It may be fun
> for time builders or youngsters but, for me, it's just plain
> underpaid work which takes time away from my soaring.
>
>
>
>
> On 10/5/2015 11:27 AM, Sean Fidler
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Wow! Great posts. I'll need time to read it all. Thanks.
>
> We have an auto-tow rig in Ionia that has been used on rare occasion. Recently, a clinic was done in Cadillac and it was quite successful from what I understand. A number of people got sign offs, etc. But then it died again.
>
> My honest opinion. Aerotowing is popular because the tow pilot lobby likes flying tow planes for free, building hours, etc. We should be auto-towing more! Especially in early training. It's a safe, viable and great option and if done with great care (as aero and winch are) it could be really impactful to lowering costs and increasing the number of youth pilots being trained.
>
> I think the public would get a kick out of seeing cars towing up gliders at airports! There is just something cool about it!
>
> Anyway...back to work.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan, 5J

Paid tow pilots? I wish...
Oh, I forgot, this is the USA :)

Hi Sean,

I attended a Mifflin regional contest years ago. There was a demonstration of an auto launch as an entertainment/instructional affair. One run only because the stress on the hot rodded auto blew the engine. Entertaining but maybe not for the owner of the auto. I think that power generated has to first be transmitted to the wheels, then additional stress on the auto frame. The added load on a changing vector as it transitions from horizontal to vertical has something to do with stress to the auto chassis/engine/traction combination. I've heard from Paul Nicholls that he commanded the auto on one occasion with Dave Nelson and he felt the rear of the auto lifting up loosing traction.

Me thinks that used on a regular basis, the maintenance cost of auto towing would exceed that of a winch.

I do agree that a cost effective alternative to aerotowing such as winching is desirable. This year, flying in the Alps of France, I have changed my base of operation to a winch only airfield. BTW, I have signed up for KS's winch clinic asa refresher.

I learned to fly gliders at a winch only field in a club run mostly by Germans who migrated to Detroit to work in the tool and die shops after the war.. Very economical for a poor student. Six tows, with instruction, and glider rental, was less than twenty dollars. But as in the traditional "old school" European glider clubs, I was made the winch driver and field boy, arriving at 6:00am, setting up the gliders and winch, and driving the winch all day long. I left the field not infrequently at 10:00pm. But I received free instruction from Eb Geyer, a fantastic instructor who taught me many things expecting great discipline. I really mean great discipline. His disciplined instruction saved my butt on several occasions. I owe him a great debt.

What is the cost of a tow plane and the annual maintenance and cost of employing a tow pilot with insurance? You could buy yourself a grand launching machine and have pennies to spare.

On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 5:33:09 AM UTC+3, wrote:
> What is the cost of a tow plane and the annual maintenance and cost of employing a tow pilot with insurance? You could buy yourself a grand launching machine and have pennies to spare.

My club in New Zealand has a policy that annual subs pay for admin&clubhouse, glider fees pay for glider maintenance and replacement, and tow fees pay for towplane maintenance and replacement. I think the treasurer does a pretty conservative job on this.

Current tow fees are NZ$15 + $20/1000 ft (up to 3500 ft .. it increases above that). In US$ that's about $10 to start plus $13.33 per 1000 ft.

I think you can reasonably assume that covers the true cost of operating a Pawnee long term.

p.s. we don't pay tow pilots.

That's what they get for hot rodding the engine I guess :)

My first auto tows were behind an early 90's Dodge Caravan. It had about 300000 miles. Then a few behind Steve Leonard's stalker van also very high mileage. Next up we used my dear Ol Blue V6 GMC pickup. It was in the middle of a not yet diagnosed head gasket failure and simply put running like crap with very low power output. Ol Blue was also north of 300k miles.

Recently we've used my Subaru Outback 3.6L, a relatively new Ford F-150, and a Ford SUV of some sort.

When I lived in Odessa tx we used my GMC pickup truck for auto towing. I don't think the truck even knew the glider (1-26) was there. If you have 5000 feet if paved runway, auto tow is lots of fun. We could get 900 -1000 ft using a 1500 foot rope in a 1-26. We could get away about 1/2 of the time, maybe less. But at 5 bucks a launch, who cares? Plus all those scratching skills have come in handy more than once.

Hello to all!
Please for help: how much is the highest height when towing by a car ("world best achievement")?

I've gotten about 1,350' using an 1,800' rope.

On 4/15/2016 10:19 AM, wrote:
> Hello to all!
> Please for help: how much is the highest height when towing by a car ("world best achievement")?
>

--
Dan, 5J

On Friday, April 15, 2016 at 9:19:36 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Hello to all!
> Please for help: how much is the highest height when towing by a car ("world best achievement")?

How about this? up to 1500' the announcer sez. Not unreasonable.
Video link was in a RAS post in 2009:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boqxZ3BOzlY
Adding more rope just seems to give more of a curve to it due to drag.
But with a long dry lake (El Mirage?) and a long bit of something thin like Spectra....
Jim

Fred why not go to or get permission for the dry lake down the road in stagecoach? Years ago they ran auto tow at that spot. And I'd think you can do better at SS airport that what your saying. If you us a diesel truck and have someone that knows how to drive, stick would be better but no matter you negate most of the wear issues. Or just someone that isn't afraid to put there foot in it after the initial roll out.

A g20 van is really a pos when not towing going down the road. :-)

On Friday, April 15, 2016 at 10:19:36 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> Hello to all!
> Please for help: how much is the highest height when towing by a car ("world best achievement")?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP8bVgG8xJc
Payout winch in a truck. 2500ft agl common in a 2-33.

We used payout winch in a hang glider on Sun Valley parkway West of Phoenix on 6000 ft of spectra and step towed to 4000' + :)

Hello Sean,
here in Croatia we often launching with car: thousands of launchs in last ten years. Have a 1600 m length of space, rope 550 m and 350-400 m height (Blanik with two pilots).
Please give me some details about Hobbs (www site if you have).
In this year we want to launch at 1000 m.
Best regards Boris

Boris, thanks for your reply.

It is great to hear about all the auto launching that is going on (many replies so far) worldwide, including your club in Croatia. For me, auto launching still seems greatly underutilized here in the USA. It still appears to be, by far, the most affordable (and simple) method of glider launch (if the flying site has the space).

I still find it ironic that many club members (or customers of commercial operations) seem to complain about costs (here in the US) but very few clubs or commercial operations seem to practice auto launching in general. I think being towed into the air by a car has more romance or appeal that a noisy airplane at 400 ft per minute! Many club members (and leaders) seem almost nostalgically tied to the idea of having an expensive and maintenance hungry towplane or winch. To a certain segment of these clubs the towplane or winch is probably their favorite part of the club. Perhaps the idea of auto towing might Be a threat to or risk taking away the importance of the expensive toy? For me, auto luanching seems even more nostalgic and cool, especially for training and club ops.

At my commercial operation in Michigan, a tow to 2000 AGL is now just under $50. Towing expenses are the highest portion of training costs. Therefore this is an important cost to manage. Imagine how many more pilots would be able to afford glider training if towing costs were reduced by 30, 50, 50 or even 75 percent? The 50 training aero tows required to get a glider rating can cost up to $2500. Imagine if that cost was only $1000? Many will cite that soaring clubs have lower aero-tow fees. True, but you must also factor in that the student must the pay for the club membership and put In the required time serving the club in return (time=money). That is a real cost as well.

Unfortunately for me, the location I fly from is an active public airport (rarely used but still public) and auto launching is not a great option for them. This is also true of a good portion of other clubs and commercial operations here in the USA unfortunately. That said many do have the space to auto tow. Perhaps more US clubs should be located at facilities suitable for auto towing?

In regards to Hobbs New Mexico, USA, it is a huge abandoned WWII air base with greater than 10,000 foot runways (800 feet wide). I just did a search of "glider club Hobbs New Mexico" and nothing really came up. This might be associated with the SSA (Soaring Society of America). I'll keep looking for more info and perhaps some video. I'm sure someone here has more knowledge about the Hobbs operation that conducted the auto towing during the 2015 18 meter/Club/Open nationals.

Sean

On Monday, April 18, 2016 at 7:27:57 AM UTC-6, Sean wrote:
> Boris, thanks for your reply.
>
> It is great to hear about all the auto launching that is going on (many replies so far) worldwide, including your club in Croatia. For me, auto launching still seems greatly underutilized here in the USA. It still appears to be, by far, the most affordable (and simple) method of glider launch (if the flying site has the space).
>
> I still find it ironic that many club members (or customers of commercial operations) seem to complain about costs (here in the US) but very few clubs or commercial operations seem to practice auto launching in general. I think being towed into the air by a car has more romance or appeal that a noisy airplane at 400 ft per minute! Many club members (and leaders) seem almost nostalgically tied to the idea of having an expensive and maintenance hungry towplane or winch. To a certain segment of these clubs the towplane or winch is probably their favorite part of the club. Perhaps the idea of auto towing might Be a threat to or risk taking away the importance of the expensive toy? For me, auto luanching seems even more nostalgic and cool, especially for training and club ops.
>
> At my commercial operation in Michigan, a tow to 2000 AGL is now just under $50. Towing expenses are the highest portion of training costs. Therefore this is an important cost to manage. Imagine how many more pilots would be able to afford glider training if towing costs were reduced by 30, 50, 50 or even 75 percent? The 50 training aero tows required to get a glider rating can cost up to $2500. Imagine if that cost was only $1000? Many will cite that soaring clubs have lower aero-tow fees. True, but you must also factor in that the student must the pay for the club membership and put In the required time serving the club in return (time=money). That is a real cost as well.
>
> Unfortunately for me, the location I fly from is an active public airport (rarely used but still public) and auto launching is not a great option for them. This is also true of a good portion of other clubs and commercial operations here in the USA unfortunately. That said many do have the space to auto tow. Perhaps more US clubs should be located at facilities suitable for auto towing?
>
> In regards to Hobbs New Mexico, USA, it is a huge abandoned WWII air base with greater than 10,000 foot runways (800 feet wide). I just did a search of "glider club Hobbs New Mexico" and nothing really came up. This might be associated with the SSA (Soaring Society of America). I'll keep looking for more info and perhaps some video. I'm sure someone here has more knowledge about the Hobbs operation that conducted the auto towing during the 2015 18 meter/Club/Open nationals.
>
> Sean

At the old Enstone Gliding Club, we autotowed with 500m of parafil and an XJ-6 Jaguar. 1500ft launches with both L-13 and G-103 and 5-10kts of headwind.

At Hobbs, their straight autotow system is simple and works and uses solid wire. The slurry on the one runway is highly abrasive on synthetic ropes. We winch launched there using Amsteel Blue and it showed. If there were 50-100 gliders there regularly, a reverse pulley would be the way to go. It is effective and efficient but requires some safety clearance room at the pulley end. On a surface like Hobbs, solid wire is the only real option but it can be used on hard surfaces as they know.
As shown before.
http://www.coloradosoaring.org/thinking_pages/ground_launching/reverse_pulley/default.htm
Cotswold now uses winches.

A reverse pulley makes best use of a fixed length and lays the wire for the next launch. With a side arm on the launch vehicle to lay the rope on a soft surface while driving on a hard surface, then synthetic ropes could be used with the glider operating from the soft surface. Nice airfield without lights or a purpose built field with lots of gliders. Nice to have common prevailing winds too.

Frank Whiteley

On Monday, April 18, 2016 at 6:09:54 PM UTC+12, wrote:
> Hello Sean,
> here in Croatia we often launching with car: thousands of launchs in last ten years. Have a 1600 m length of space, rope 550 m and 350-400 m height (Blanik with two pilots).
> Please give me some details about Hobbs (www site if you have).
> In this year we want to launch at 1000 m.

What can you say about maintenance time and costs for the launch vehicle?
How many launches an hour can you do? (assuming a queue of gliders waiting)

Hello Dan, can I come next year for the Ground Launch Weekend? Please for details about location and near big town. How long is Roach Dry Lake and how long is usefull part for launch?
Here in Poland we have old millitary hard runway (12.000 f). We want to achieve over 3000 f height.
Boris from Croatia, Slovenia and Poland

Hello Boris,

Roach Dry Lake is about 6 miles long, I think, and they use about 2/3 of
that for launching. They use a truck with 1,800 feet of rope and
release altitudes are usually about 1,350 feet. They have the ground
launch weekends in April and October. Check here for details and
contact Las Vegas Valley Soaring Association directly for the latest
information. http://www.lvvsa.org/#!safaris/c5n2
<http://www.lvvsa.org/#%21safaris/c5n2>

Since I now have a Stemme, I don't need assisted launches any more, but
I may still come just because the people are so nice.

Regards,

Dan


On 5/21/2016 5:53 AM, wrote:
> Hello Dan, can I come next year for the Ground Launch Weekend? Please for details about location and near big town. How long is Roach Dry Lake and how long is usefull part for launch?
> Here in Poland we have old millitary hard runway (12.000 f). We want to achieve over 3000 f height.
> Boris from Croatia, Slovenia and Poland

--
Dan, 5J

I am so happy to see an auto towing event being organized. Sadly, my glider has no CG hook. I'll have to borrow something!

Club function. We do it twice a year if the weather cooperates. Not too much wind and a dry lake, no rain in the previous two weeks.
El Niño is making it tougher to get it done.

LVVSA.org.
BillT

Sean!
Come in summer and fly with us auto tow (Croatia, Aeroclub Split)
Best r. Boris